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All my ciders taste like dry wine - any suggestions?
goodluck, Rex, and just remember: everything is ready to drink once it has cleared...but this doesnt mean it tastes good.
if you can find it in you, summon the patience, grasshopper. it is amazing what time will do for a cider. the tastes really mellow and mature.
i would strongly recommend you go ahead and bottle whatever your first batch is, and then taste it as you will (every two weeks, every month, whatever floats your boat). this will be a real eye opener for you. that cider in the first bottle will be have slim resemblance to the cider in the last bottle.
and take tasting notes. they dont have to be internationally recognized judge cards, just something that you can gauge. like "sour", "sweet", "tart", "bitter", "yeasty", "dry", "barely drinkable", ect. as long as it is something that you can go back to after all the batch is gone and say "it looks like four months is minimum" or "it is peaking at 5 months but decent at 6 weeks in a pinch".
you will learn a lot, and realize that the more time you give it, the better it will be. for the recipe above, my tasting panel told me it was good at 2 (or 3 months, i forget without my notes how old it was). i have yet to try it again, because i am have been doing battle with a mead. but it bet it is better.
maybe tomorrow i will try a round and post up tasting notes.
even if all you do is a trial batch of one gallon, bottle it in 12-oz bottles and start a regular tasting schedule. go for as long as the bottles last.
if you dont see a marked improvement, let me know and i will beg for your forgiveness and make sacrifices to your gods on your behalf.
post script
EdRex, where are you located?
i saw you mentioned trader joes in your post. if you are in or around the seattle area, a few of us gather from time to time to brew and taste. if you are in the area, iyou would be most welcome.
and you could taste my recipes and springboard from there for your own tastes.
Sorry sir, I am light years away in Indianapolis. I truly appreciate your input. I actually do have 2 half gallon test batches going. Unfortunately, after reading in this thread, I'm not holding my breath, because each is loaded with a different high alcohol yeast (one wine and one champagne). I'll let them finish up and if they're useless, I can always make some vinegar to mop all over some smoky goodness on my bbq pit.
Since I'm here, I'll show you the recipe I wrote based on your instructions, and a bit of my own fill in the blanks. A little background: I am a professional chef currently making a living teaching cooking classes at a local high-end appliance retailer. I ran this through my recipe writing software as if it was a food recipe that I was teaching. I stopped into a brew shop to show it to the owner, and he just scratched his head. He didn't say it wouldn't work, but I think the method is a wee bit unconventional. If I don't find something better, this is what I am going to roll with as soon as the fresh apple press starts, about 3 weeks. Note that most of this is subject to change as the recipe is **UNTESTED**
New England Hard Cider
Recipe By :Chef Ben Lierman
NOTES : You will need to purchase 5 gallons of apple cider for the complete recipe. I have broken down the additions as needed in the recipe, for simpler instructions. If you are using local, unpasteurized, preservative free (as recommended) cider, you may want to wait to purchase the last gallon as close to bottling time as possible, to avoid spoilage.
Special thanks to Krausenator at brewingkb.com for critical imput
Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
3 gallons apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
1 gallon apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
4 pounds dark brown sugar
2 cups apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
4 each campden tablets -- crushed into a powder
1 teaspoon pectic enzyme
1 teaspoon yeast nutrient
2 each cinnamon sticks -- about 3 inches each
1 each whole nutmeg -- broken up, crack with a hammer in a towel
3 each cloves
1 each WYeast 4766 cider yeast -- at room temperature
1/2 each campden tablet -- crushed into a powder
38 ounces apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
Thoroughly sanitize a 6 gallon plastic primary fermenter. Add the 3 gallons of cider to the fermenter. Combine the 1 gallon of apple cider to a large saucepot with the brown sugar. Heat the mixture to approximately 160-165 degrees farenheit, stirring constantly until the sugar dissolves. Allow to cool to room temperature. Add directly to the fermenter. Divide the remaining two cups of cider into one cup divisions, each in a small glass bowl.
To one glass bowl, add the crushed campden tablet, the pectic enzyme, and the yeast nutrient, stir thoroughly to dissolve. Stir this to the fermenter with a sanitized wire wisk or stainless steel spoon. To the other glass bowl, place the cinnamon sticks, nutmeg, and cloves. Place the bowl in the microwave and nuke on high until it is at a rolling boil, about two minutes. Remove immediately from the microwave with oven mitts, and cover with plastic wrap or foil (sealed tightly) and leave on the counter for 10 minutes. Stir this mixture, spices and all into the fermenter. Allow mixture to "rest" overnight at approximately 72 degrees in the covered and sealed fermenter with a sanitized airlock affixed.
The next day, with a sanitized wire wisk, vigorously stir in (pitch) the liquid WYeast. Reseal the fermenter (minding your sanitation, of course), and allow to ferment, approximately 1 week, or until the bubbles in the airlock are very slow (>1/minute).
Rack the cider into a secondary fermenter, straining out the spices, and leaving the lees in the primary. Allow to ferment another week or so in the secondary, until the yeast settles out, leaving a clear, amber to yellow colored cider.
The night before you plan to bottle, add the remaining 1/2 campden tablet to the remaining 38 ounces of cider. Allow to sit covered overnight. Rack the cider to a bottling bucket, and add the remaining treated cider, stirring thoroughly. Bottle per your bottling set-up and allow to age a minimum of 4 weeks. Should peak in 3-6 months.
the recipe itself looks tasty. i think it is a bit complicated in the preparation stages, but that is just my style.
a few notes:
i have never used the campden tablets, and you could probably eliminate them without adverse effect. the fresh cider you press may have some wild yeasts or bacterias, but if you have a strong healthy yeast starter, the yeast you pitch will overwhelm any wild strains without a problem.
with the spices, i would steep them in whatever amount of cider you warm up for sugar dissolution (from your recipe, it looks like three gallons). you will get a better spice flavor, kind of like a hop utilization (full boils are best if you have a pot big enough).
only other thing i would mention is that you might want to brew up a few test batches with potential yeast so you can decide which yeast has the flavor profil you are looking for. the WYeast is good, but i personally prefer the white labs english cider yeast. it has a cleaner flavor finish. the wyeast tastes fruity but has a slightly yeasty nose; whereas the white labs smells fruity and has a distinct apple flavor.
good luck, let us know how it works out.
krausenator wrote:
...add some priming sugar to get carbonated cider. you can add raw cider or applejuice, as long as you know the original gravity of the cider/apple juice (so you know the sugar content). do so as follows:
(12 x gallons of cider brewed) / (specific gravity of cider or apple juice - 1) x (1000)
so if you brew 3 gallons of "hard" cider, and the specific gravity of the "raw" or unfermented juice is 1.045, your equation looks like:
(12 x 3) / (1.045-1) x 1000 = 0.8 quarts (or 26 ounces)
.
Thank you krausenator for posting this formula, it is exactly the information I was looking for!
But, shouldn't it be / 1000 (or * .001) at the end rather than * 1000? The example shown calculates to 80,000 quarts rather than .8 quarts.
The formula written as below calculates to .8 quarts:
(12 x gallons of cider brewed) / (specific gravity of cider or apple juice - 1) x (.001)
I think your problem is the yeast and added sugar.
These days, I only use apple juice (in 3litre plastic bottles) from the supermarket (NO preservative) and NO added sugar etc.
I use 2 teaspoons of sugar when I bottle into 700ml plastic "pet" bottles, and my ciders are consistently mildly sweet and gassy, like a sparkling light wine, unless of course I let it "age" too long, as I have found over the years, the older it becomes, the dryer it gets, so I do not brew too much each time, but brew small quantities 24litres) regularly.
ALSO, I have found that a cheap beer yeast keeps the cider mildly sweet, not dry. I found that wine and cider and champayne yeasts make the cider dry.
Dont worry, because there is no added sugar, it will still get you "leg-less"
have fun
"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her."
If you want ot sweeten dry cider do the same as you would wine. Stablize it to kill any yeast left in it then add sugar to get the sweetness level you want, then bottle. you can use campden tablets to kill the yeast. One tablet per gallon will do the trick. I use campden tablets for that purpose in sweetening wine and right before bottling to ensure no bottle bombs.
DC
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