Pages: 1 2
All my ciders taste like dry wine - any suggestions?
Over 10 years ago I brewed beer (about 10 batches all good) then stopped. Now I have a taste for cider and brewed 8 batches so far. All of them taste like dry wine and I am looking for the crisp apple taste that I find in a Strong Bow. I let them ferment for about 2 weeks each. Here are the general mixes that I have been using. The first 7 have been 1 gal batches and the last one was a 5 gal brew.
Musselman’s 100% Apple Cider, 1 ½ cup sugar, Red Star Montrachet Active Dry Wine Yeast
Great Value’s Apple Juice from concentrate, 1 ½ cup powdered sugar, Starter yeast from previous batch
Indian Summer Apple Cider, Red Star Pasteur Champagne Active Dry Wine Yeast
Al Ain Apple Juice, 500g Natural Fruit Sugar, Lalvin ED-118 Champagne Yeast
Marmum Apple Juice, Starter yeast from previous batch
Al Marai Apple Juice, Starter yeast from previous batch
Al Marai Apple Juice, 1/3 cup Natural Fruit Sugar, Starter yeast from previous batch
Nada Natural Apple Juice, 1500g Brown Sugar, Wyeast 4766 Cider Activator
Some more food for thought. If you don’t recognize some of the apple juice names, that is because I now reside in the UAE. With that note, my brewing supplies are limited and I have to save a lot of my own yeast. My hydrometer broke on the move over hear so I have pretty much waited until all fermentation stops to gauge when ready. Also, beer bottles are hard to come by, I saw the comment about using mason jars; which I was going to try as well. Any suggestions on bottling with mason jars? Finally, if anyone knows of a brewing club or brewing supply place in the UAE that would be great. This is one of the few Middle Eastern countries where alcohol is legal.
I tried to be specific and to the point, if you need more info let me know.
Thanks for the help,
Nick
you are either getting the dry wine taste because you are using a wine yeast, or because you are not letting the cider age. most ciders need a minimum 4 - 6 months in the bottle to condition before they are good. so you may just need to wait. i think it is due to the yeast, and no matter how long you wait the cider will still be dry. i have a cider that is 15 months old and is barely drinkable: it is a ltitle sour, way too dry. i used a champagne yeast.
your cider to sugar ratios are fine, even on the sweet side. what you need to do is switch it up with a cider yeast or an ale yeast.
i'll give you a recipe from ones i am working on, this is the one that got the best review from our beer brewing group:
-2 gallons unpreserved cider or apple juice. pasteurized will still work, but any preservative will contain a phosphate that will kill yeast
-2 lbs brown sugar (or sweetener as you have, brown sugar is a good flavor though)
- two sticks cinnammon (whole)
- one crushed whole nutmeg
- three to four whole cloves
warm up the cider, do not boil! maybe around 165 F, then dissolve the sugar, add the spices and keep just at low boil, more like a steep ( no more than 195-200 F) for 15 to 20 minutes.
you can filter out the spices, or not, your choice. then cool to 75 F (or thereabouts) and pitch your yeast.
if you use a wine yeast, you are going to have to stop fermentation yourself. wine yeasts, especially those champagne yeasts, will ferment to15% alcohol by volume. that is why everything tastes so dry. so get a new hydrometer, and if you use wine yeast, kill fermentation with potassium sorbate or some such with a residual or final gravity of around 10% ( i.e. with a gravity around 1.010/2.5 Balling/1% ABV).
if you can, get your hands on more of that WYeast Cider yeast,though White Labs English Cider yeast tastes better. ferment for two weeks, then bottle. add some priming sugar to get carbonated cider. you can add raw cider or applejuice, as long as you know the original gravity of the cider/apple juice (so you know the sugar content). do so as follows:
(12 x gallons of cider brewed) / (specific gravity of cider or apple juice - 1) x (1000)
so if you brew 3 gallons of "hard" cider, and the specific gravity of the "raw" or unfermented juice is 1.045, your equation looks like:
(12 x 3) / (1.045-1) x 1000 = 0.8 quarts (or 26 ounces)
you ca use table sugar, at the rate of 3/4 cup per 5 gallons. if you use too much more, you will gnet over-carbonated bottles that may explode. one cup of table sugar per 5 gallons is as high as you should go.
if you can buy alcohol, buy champagne bottles and re-use them. most champagne bottle necks can be capped with a regular beer bottle crimp cap. you can get bottle crimpers and bottle caps on the internet for cheap. the glassware would cost a ton to ship, so just buy champagne bottles and use them.
you will need a hydrometer, especially if your finished product is too dry. you have to know where the fermentation is at to kill it. but remember: if you stop fermentation with potassium sorbate, you will not be able to bottle condition and carbonate. so your best bet is to use a cider or an ale yeast, sweeten the must with sugar, let ferment, bottle, cap, enjoy.
with the above recipe, i got an OG of 1.102, and an FG of 1.002 (for a 2-gallon batch). it had perfect residual sweetness, an apple flavor and aroma, and great taste. use the spices, they are not obvious, and they give it a good balanced flavor. without the spices, it is still good, but without 6 to 8 months conditioning it just tastes yeasty.
hope this helps. good luck.
Thanks for your thoughts and recipe. I will try your recipe on my next batch. I initially started using wine and champagne yeast because that was the first article that I came across last year when I started brewing. I had forgotten about the champagne bottles. That is probably my biggest problem is stockpiling my bottles. Right now I am using glass coke bottles with plastic twist tops and haven’t had an explosion yet, but KNOW I need to find something better.
I do have a bottler and plenty of bottle caps. I bought those and a couple other supplies before coming over. I have an FPO box so can mail order some smaller things pretty cheaply but it takes a couple of weeks. I will order a new hydrometer and some Potassium Sorbate tablets on my next order. My last order I got 2 types of Wyeast and an Ale yeast so can do some more brewing with those. I also read all my apple juice labels and don’t use anything with preservatives.
Yours are the first comments that I have read about letting the cider age. All my previous brews I brewed and drank. Not the patient one but will try to let it age. I have some of my last 3 brews still in bottles. I will let them sit awhile and see what happens.
Thanks again for these comments. Does anyone else have thoughts that they want to share? Any pointers on using Mason Jars? I can get those pretty easily as well.
Nick
I both brew and can & have ended up with a lot of canning jars. Keep in mind that they are designed to maintain a vacuum, not hold a pressure. I've never "bottled" in the jars, but it might work. You could try a couple experimental jars the next time you bottle. Also, on the champagne bottles, there are two sizes of tops, one the same size as a normal beer bottle & the other is a bit bigger & won't work. Usually the cheaper stuff is the smaller top. You can also find that size in sparkling non-alcoholic cider.
Go to weddings, a good place for both sparkling cider & cheap bubbly. 
Brewski wrote:
Go to weddings, a good place for both sparkling cider & cheap bubbly.
I am sure there are plenty of weddings to attend in the UAE.
if you can, get your hands on more of that WYeast Cider yeast,though White Labs English Cider yeast tastes better.
I'm new to this... Where can you buy cider yeast? I'm in Boston.
Scott
sashurlow wrote:
if you can, get your hands on more of that WYeast Cider yeast,though White Labs English Cider yeast tastes better.
I'm new to this... Where can you buy cider yeast? I'm in Boston.
Scott
Try the Modern Brewerin cambridge.
Or Beer and Wine Hobby Supply in Woburn if you can stand a little further drive.
Of course there is always Mail order from places like MoreBeer, NorthernBrewer, or MidWest HomeBrewing.
Hope that helps.
nowatney wrote:
All of them taste like dry wine and I am looking for the crisp apple taste that I find in a Strong Bow.
I will be of little help in this matter, but I want to chime in say that I greatly prefer dry cider I have made over the cloying, overly sweet cider that I have found in the commercial market. I am working a batch of EdWort's with the 3068 weizen yeast, which is supposed to be a bit fruitier. It's been bubbling away for 2months (!).
About the only cider I have found the sweetness to be tolerable in is the Ace Pear, which is nice.
Of course, I like my champagne bone dry as well so maybe that's just my preference in general.
I've had good results with mead yeast too. Seems to leave a little more of the residual sweetness and cover over that tart eye-twitching taste.
Wow, I should have checked in here first. I just posted in another thread, whining about not being able to get cider "appley" enough. Lots of awesome info here, thanks Krausenator for a clear recipe that explains what the finished product is supposed to taste like. Most of the recipes I have come across are more to the taste of Fratermus, but from what I have seen in numerous searches, most folks want something fruitier and sweeter. I can't wait to get this rolling!
goodluck, Rex, and just remember: everything is ready to drink once it has cleared...but this doesnt mean it tastes good.
if you can find it in you, summon the patience, grasshopper. it is amazing what time will do for a cider. the tastes really mellow and mature.
i would strongly recommend you go ahead and bottle whatever your first batch is, and then taste it as you will (every two weeks, every month, whatever floats your boat). this will be a real eye opener for you. that cider in the first bottle will be have slim resemblance to the cider in the last bottle.
and take tasting notes. they dont have to be internationally recognized judge cards, just something that you can gauge. like "sour", "sweet", "tart", "bitter", "yeasty", "dry", "barely drinkable", ect. as long as it is something that you can go back to after all the batch is gone and say "it looks like four months is minimum" or "it is peaking at 5 months but decent at 6 weeks in a pinch".
you will learn a lot, and realize that the more time you give it, the better it will be. for the recipe above, my tasting panel told me it was good at 2 (or 3 months, i forget without my notes how old it was). i have yet to try it again, because i am have been doing battle with a mead. but it bet it is better.
maybe tomorrow i will try a round and post up tasting notes.
even if all you do is a trial batch of one gallon, bottle it in 12-oz bottles and start a regular tasting schedule. go for as long as the bottles last.
if you dont see a marked improvement, let me know and i will beg for your forgiveness and make sacrifices to your gods on your behalf.
post script
EdRex, where are you located?
i saw you mentioned trader joes in your post. if you are in or around the seattle area, a few of us gather from time to time to brew and taste. if you are in the area, iyou would be most welcome.
and you could taste my recipes and springboard from there for your own tastes.
Sorry sir, I am light years away in Indianapolis. I truly appreciate your input. I actually do have 2 half gallon test batches going. Unfortunately, after reading in this thread, I'm not holding my breath, because each is loaded with a different high alcohol yeast (one wine and one champagne). I'll let them finish up and if they're useless, I can always make some vinegar to mop all over some smoky goodness on my bbq pit.
Since I'm here, I'll show you the recipe I wrote based on your instructions, and a bit of my own fill in the blanks. A little background: I am a professional chef currently making a living teaching cooking classes at a local high-end appliance retailer. I ran this through my recipe writing software as if it was a food recipe that I was teaching. I stopped into a brew shop to show it to the owner, and he just scratched his head. He didn't say it wouldn't work, but I think the method is a wee bit unconventional. If I don't find something better, this is what I am going to roll with as soon as the fresh apple press starts, about 3 weeks. Note that most of this is subject to change as the recipe is **UNTESTED**
New England Hard Cider
Recipe By :Chef Ben Lierman
NOTES : You will need to purchase 5 gallons of apple cider for the complete recipe. I have broken down the additions as needed in the recipe, for simpler instructions. If you are using local, unpasteurized, preservative free (as recommended) cider, you may want to wait to purchase the last gallon as close to bottling time as possible, to avoid spoilage.
Special thanks to Krausenator at brewingkb.com for critical imput
Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
3 gallons apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
1 gallon apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
4 pounds dark brown sugar
2 cups apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
4 each campden tablets -- crushed into a powder
1 teaspoon pectic enzyme
1 teaspoon yeast nutrient
2 each cinnamon sticks -- about 3 inches each
1 each whole nutmeg -- broken up, crack with a hammer in a towel
3 each cloves
1 each WYeast 4766 cider yeast -- at room temperature
1/2 each campden tablet -- crushed into a powder
38 ounces apple cider -- fresh, un-pasteurized, no preservatives
Thoroughly sanitize a 6 gallon plastic primary fermenter. Add the 3 gallons of cider to the fermenter. Combine the 1 gallon of apple cider to a large saucepot with the brown sugar. Heat the mixture to approximately 160-165 degrees farenheit, stirring constantly until the sugar dissolves. Allow to cool to room temperature. Add directly to the fermenter. Divide the remaining two cups of cider into one cup divisions, each in a small glass bowl.
To one glass bowl, add the crushed campden tablet, the pectic enzyme, and the yeast nutrient, stir thoroughly to dissolve. Stir this to the fermenter with a sanitized wire wisk or stainless steel spoon. To the other glass bowl, place the cinnamon sticks, nutmeg, and cloves. Place the bowl in the microwave and nuke on high until it is at a rolling boil, about two minutes. Remove immediately from the microwave with oven mitts, and cover with plastic wrap or foil (sealed tightly) and leave on the counter for 10 minutes. Stir this mixture, spices and all into the fermenter. Allow mixture to "rest" overnight at approximately 72 degrees in the covered and sealed fermenter with a sanitized airlock affixed.
The next day, with a sanitized wire wisk, vigorously stir in (pitch) the liquid WYeast. Reseal the fermenter (minding your sanitation, of course), and allow to ferment, approximately 1 week, or until the bubbles in the airlock are very slow (>1/minute).
Rack the cider into a secondary fermenter, straining out the spices, and leaving the lees in the primary. Allow to ferment another week or so in the secondary, until the yeast settles out, leaving a clear, amber to yellow colored cider.
The night before you plan to bottle, add the remaining 1/2 campden tablet to the remaining 38 ounces of cider. Allow to sit covered overnight. Rack the cider to a bottling bucket, and add the remaining treated cider, stirring thoroughly. Bottle per your bottling set-up and allow to age a minimum of 4 weeks. Should peak in 3-6 months.
the recipe itself looks tasty. i think it is a bit complicated in the preparation stages, but that is just my style.
a few notes:
i have never used the campden tablets, and you could probably eliminate them without adverse effect. the fresh cider you press may have some wild yeasts or bacterias, but if you have a strong healthy yeast starter, the yeast you pitch will overwhelm any wild strains without a problem.
with the spices, i would steep them in whatever amount of cider you warm up for sugar dissolution (from your recipe, it looks like three gallons). you will get a better spice flavor, kind of like a hop utilization (full boils are best if you have a pot big enough).
only other thing i would mention is that you might want to brew up a few test batches with potential yeast so you can decide which yeast has the flavor profil you are looking for. the WYeast is good, but i personally prefer the white labs english cider yeast. it has a cleaner flavor finish. the wyeast tastes fruity but has a slightly yeasty nose; whereas the white labs smells fruity and has a distinct apple flavor.
good luck, let us know how it works out.
krausenator wrote:
...add some priming sugar to get carbonated cider. you can add raw cider or applejuice, as long as you know the original gravity of the cider/apple juice (so you know the sugar content). do so as follows:
(12 x gallons of cider brewed) / (specific gravity of cider or apple juice - 1) x (1000)
so if you brew 3 gallons of "hard" cider, and the specific gravity of the "raw" or unfermented juice is 1.045, your equation looks like:
(12 x 3) / (1.045-1) x 1000 = 0.8 quarts (or 26 ounces)
.
Thank you krausenator for posting this formula, it is exactly the information I was looking for!
But, shouldn't it be / 1000 (or * .001) at the end rather than * 1000? The example shown calculates to 80,000 quarts rather than .8 quarts.
The formula written as below calculates to .8 quarts:
(12 x gallons of cider brewed) / (specific gravity of cider or apple juice - 1) x (.001)
Pages: 1 2
Search Home Brewing Knowledge Base
Custom Search
|