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Pumpkin Cyser
I am thinking about brewing a Pumpkin Cyser (mead and cider mixed). I am going to try and formulate a recipe in the upcoming week. I am posting in here to try and get some early feed back on Ideas for ratios of apple juice to honey to water. Also what apple juice works the best, what honey works well with pumpkin and in cysers. In addition, what spices go well in apple ciders and with pumpkin. I am assuming they are similar. Finally what yeast is a great yeast for cysers. I was hoping to get a 7%-9% ABV. This will be my 1st cyser, but by the time I do this, I should have done a few meads and beers. I am also curious as to if I should add canned pumpkin in the primary to ferment or in the secondary as flavor or both. I am also considering lightly hopping this. Idk why, Just an Idea. Any thoughts on what hops might work well? It would be for aroma mostly and a bit of flavor, not any for bittering. So maybe a 20 min and 5 min hop schedule utilizing an oz total. This is going to more then likely be a 3 gallon batch. Thank you for the feedback! 
no help here, just wanted to say it sounds interesting.
Curious about how much pumpkin flavor you are after, & how you plan to introduce it.
I make a Apple Pie Melomel for late Oct into Nov, every year. Maybe you're looking to do something similar??
If you're planning on adding hops I'd immagine it would just be dry hopping. You don't want to boil the apple juice because it would set pectins and make your cyser permanantly cloudy. So unless you're planning on dry hoping I wouldn't go for the hops.
As far as spices, cinnamon and nutmeg are the general go-to's for both pumpkin and apple.
As for ratios, most people I find go for a pound of honey to gallon of juice (water if you're doing mead) for a dryer cyser, pound and a half/galon for a sweeter mead/cyser. But usually these turn out an ABV of 10-13% and use a dry wine or champaigne yeast (that's what I use, either Lavin D-47 or Red Star Champaigne). As Brewski would tell you, the D-47 doesn't ferment out as dry as the Red Star so I'd go for that becasuse a pumpkin cyser I'd immagine you'd want on the semi-sweet side. For the ABV you're looking for an ale yeast or english cyder yeast would work and beat out before you got too high, but I don't know if you'd want to rack it to the secondary sooner as I always use wine yeasts for my cider.
If it were me, I'd save the pumpkin (and a couple of cinnamon sticks) for the secondary, use a pound of honey to gallon of juice and go for the Lalvin D-47 and forget the hops. Let it go in the primary for a good 1 1/2 to two months (cider goes mutch slower than beer) and the secondary for an additional month (if you have patience, and none of us do, I've heard of people bulk aging cyder for over a year, but that seems overkill).
Also, if you're not planning on it being a sparkling, when it's all said and done (if it's too dry) you can add potaseum sorbate (stir it in and leave it for two more days) and then backsweeten to taste with a little more honey or brown sugar, bottle, good to go.
That's my two cents. Whatever you do let us all know, this sounds like a great holiday cyser!
sewer_urchen That sounds really good. What would you recommend for carbonation? Is it 'true to style' to either carbonate or not? Also how much pumpkin would you use for say a 4 gallon batch? Would you just use the canned stuff?
As far as the hops Idea, I have decided against it. This is going to be a complicated pallet anyway, I don't need more flavors.
Based on the preliminary research yesterday night, here are the answers to some of your questions:
How much pumpkin flavor? I was reading that per 5 gallons, a 15oz can is a mild flavor and a 30 oz can is a medium. Since we are doing 4 gallons, and so far my research has not told me to put the pumpkin in the secondary, just the primary, I was going to go with 30oz can. I am just a little worried about the flavor escaping from CO2 release. I have read that if you were to just ferment pumpkin, it has enough sugar to make a 2-3% ABV beverage. So some of the sugars will get used, but its mostly for flavoring. The final result of the recipes used where pumpkin is in the primary have shown significant pumpkin taste, so based on that, I dont think we need to add it in the secondary.
Ratio of honey to juice? I was expecting to use the standard honey ratio for mead(3 lbs per gallon dissolved in 1 gallon of water.) and then fill the rest with juice but honey is the most expensive part of the recipe, so if you say we can use less, maybe we will use 2lbs per gallon. I don't want to back sweeten so my idea was to over sweeten in the beginning so that when the yeast dies out at around 10%, then there are still sugars left for a sweet taste. Is this a valid idea? We could always cold crash it to be safe from explosions.
Yeast? I think we are going to go with an ale yeast. Either Wyeast 1056 or Wyeast 1272. They seem to be very similar, so which ever one out LHBS has we will use.
Schedule? I was just planning on using the standard mead schedule. 30 day primary, 90 day secondary. But if it can be done faster, that's fantastic.
e_mott09: Why shouldn't I ask about the beer in your primary lol! I laughed literally out loud when I saw that!
Since you are mostly going for the pumkpin/apple flavor, you can save a ton of $$ by getting your honey at Sam's or Cosco, around $12 for 5#. I saw the same, exact bottles in the LHBS for $24.95. Probably bot them at Sam's & doubled the price.
Lavin D-47 period.
What kind of sweetness would you expect from the D-47?
I agree with Brewski, I'd go for the Lalvin D-47. This sounds like it needs to be a higher ABV anyway. It sounds like you're starting VERY sweet. Like you said, the pumpkin is sweet to begin with, the apple juice is mostly fermentable (my cider ended up .996) and you're considering 3# of honey to one gallon of juice (I'd use less water to disolve the honey in so you won't loose the apple flavor, one gallon of water seems a lot since you're planning on only brewing 3-4 gallons; in fact, don't use water at all, warm up a gallon of apple juice just warm enough to disolve the honey into a lighter syrup. Just don't bring it to a boil). Also consider you're using a mead ration of honey which is supposed to be just honey with water, taking the juice and pumpkin into account I wouldn't go with more than 2# per gallon. As an example I did a cider last year that used 1.5# of sugar per gallon of juice (fresh pressed apple cider, but early in the pressing season, so the juice didn't have as much sugar to it as it would if it were pressed in late October) and still ended up with an ABV of arround 12%. With as much sugar as you're planning you should end up with a OG higher than 1.100. I'd be concerned with an ale yeast that it would stop and still be too sweet. You could always add D-47 at that point if it was the case, but I'd just use the D-47 to begin with and you'd be garanteed to have more control over the sweetness at the end with sorbate and backsweeten, but only if necessary, the sorbate won't add or change the flavor. Or if you're against backsweetening, just keep an eye (taste bud) on it and when it gets to a gravity/sweetness you're happy with add the sorbate then. Either way the D-47 and sorbate are your best bet for having control over the brew and not just leaving it in God's hands.
No matter what "faster" isn't going to be an option, all of these suggestions lead to this being a drink that will need to age in the bottle.
I've never done pumpkin so if you're research tells you to use in the primary go for it. I've not done a mead before either but I have done cyser and they need time.
To answer e_motto09 if I were to try carbonating this I'd let it get down to dry, then add a 1/2 teaspoon of white sugar to a 12 oz. bottle or a heaping teaspoon to a champagne bottle. Which is the other reason wine yeast would be better because it ferments table sugar without any problem. If you wanted sweet sparkling you need to pasturize and Brewski and I both have talked about that with each other in other subjects already (priming for carbonation or Honey just crystalized thread) and it's getting off the subject.
I hope, MadScientistMike, that I haven't come across too opinionated here. Like I said before, whatever you do keep us posted because I'd like to try this sometime and I really want to hear how it comes out, this sounds like it could be really good if perfected.
I know a LOT of people swear by this D-47. Especially for meads. I do want to use it in a brew eventually, But I have never been one to follow the beat and path. I have a mead in secondary right now that I used a yeast that's 14% wine yeast and it so far is very dry and I don't want a dry taste with this brew. That's why I personally think an Ale yeast that will quit working around 11% max will be great. You do make a good point about the honey. If we are adding juice, the honey can be greatly reduced to maybe 1.5Lbs per gallon (which we are now leaning towards just doing a full 5 gallons.) I know I will eventually come around to the potassium sorbate Idea, but as of right now, I like the "leave it in gods hands" Idea better. That's just me though. As far as carbonation, I was thinking of adding X number of grams of cinnamon sugar. The stuff you use to make french toast. I haven't looked into preservatives or ferment ability of it yet, I just thought it fit the theme of the brew well.
Sounds like you've got a plan. Can't wait to hear how it comes out. Carbonating the way you're planning could be tricky, since you want a sweet taste. With wine/mead/cider when you carbonate you need to really let it go completely dry. Assuming everything goes to plan you're going to have plenty of fermentable sugar still in the brew (because you're hoping for the yeast to kick before the sugar does) when you bottle so you probably won't need to add anything but the ground cinamon (also, I found a couple cinamon sticks in the secondary really help cut the acidity of the apple juice, less puckered lips.) and pitch some new yeast.
Check out the "Priming for Carbonation" thread a couple of posts down for a discussion Brewski and I had about carbonating a sweet cider. You're going to have to pasturize, truthfully. I've heard mixed reviews on the effectivness of cold crashing and it's killing off the yeast, beer yeast can survive pretty cold teps and lager yeast can be fermenting at 40*F. If you re-pitch some more ale yeast before bottling the alcohol content may be enough alone to kill it off (and it may not get carbonated at all). if you pitch a champagne yeast to carbonate you might have a recepie for bottle bombs, and we can't drink wine that's been splattered all over the walls 
. But this is all a few months down the road and you have plenty of time to think about that. On my first cider batch I didn't know what I wanted, so I bottled half with a 1/2 t of sugar per 12 oz bottle and put the sorbate in the other half and bottled that two days later. I like it sparkling and still so go with what you're instinct tells you you'll like better. I did have success with a semi-sweet sparkling using the pasturizing technique described in the thread mentioned above.
Sounds like it's going to be delicious. Cheers and good luck. Experimentation is never a bad thing, without it we'd still be drinking the wine the Romans and Greeks used to brew in crock pots. Cheers!
So lets say this is being brewed, not carbonated, but still desired to be on the sweet side. Could you use D-47 to be sure it will ferment as long as you want it too. But when your desired sweetness is achieved could you throw the batch back in the kettle to re heat it? Then secondary and flavor as normal?
I don't think that would work verry well. In putting it back in the pot and heating you're giving it a great oportunity to get contaminated, airated, and a number of other things that could make it go bad. Once the brew has started you want to keep it out of contact with air, that's why an open bottle of wine is only good for a few days after you open it, because bacteria in the air get into it and start to turn it to vinegar. On top of that, you need to raise the temp up to 170* to kill the yeast and by that point the alcohol would be evaporating. That's why heat pasturizing needs to be done after you've bottled already. There is a risk of blowing a couple of caps off but if done properly you can be quite successfull.
[On a side note, you can only take yourself so seariously. Racking into a secondary, the bottling bucket, and bottle are pretty safe, and you're not exposing your brew to air that long; plus, the alcohol acts as a way to keep the brew safe enough during this short time of exposure; cooled wart is much more vaunerable than brewed beer. I think, sometimes, that people can become over-paranoid about this, I rack my cider three times to get it clear and haven't had a single bottle of vinegar come out of it. Just don't go crazy and splash it arround and you'll be fine]
The only way (that I know of) to stop the fermentation when you reach desired sweetness is to add potaseum sorbate at that point (any lhbs should have this). I've used this on ciders with great success and not had any off flavors or changes to the brew what-so-ever happen. Potaseum Sorbate is also a preservative and will help your cider keep much longer if you plan on storing for a long time (though with the higher alcohol content we've been discussing that wouldn't be an issue anyway, wine keeps, beer goes bad after a long time). The reason I mentioned above that you should wait two days after putting in the sorbate is because the sorbate doesn't kill the yeast, it merely stops the yeasts abbility to reproduce and so you need to give it a couple of days for the yeast still suspended in the brew to die off. This also prevents you from making the brew sparkling. When it comes to wine, still cider, and mead, potasseum sorbate can be an essential part of your recipe.
I suppose if you had the equipment there is the technology out there now where you can pasturize with UV light, but from what I understand that's more a commercial process and not common among homebrewing. I don't really know about it or weather or not it changes flavor either.
For those beginners out there who don't know you might notice the yeast "cake" at the bottom of a fermenter is a lot more yeast than the little packet you pitched at the beginning of the process. That's because the yeast feeds on the sugar, produces more yeast cells (along with alcohol and Co2) and dies; this all happens in a matter of a couple of days.
-I wasn't implying, e_motto that you didn't know that I just thought I'd throw it out there because when I started I didn't know it and understanding the chemestry behind the brewing process can help you be a more confident brewer.
This subject has made me feel terrably long winded. Sorry if I'm coming across that way.
Haha, no problem. MadScientistMike is actually a friend of mine, and we'll be brewing this together, as sort of starting a yearly autumn tradition. That's why we both seem to be asking questions in the same direction. Haha. I don't have any experience with wine or mead or anything above 7% abv as of yet so now when I'm trying to imagine the entire process of this brew some questions have arisen. I'm still not sure the direction we should go as far as carbonation. Is a Cyser usually carbonated? It doesn't seem like a drink that would be, being so high in alcohol this barely even seems like a drink that should be served chilled. It seems that using d-47 and then introducing potassium sorbate when the desired sweetness is achieved, and then leaving it uncarbonated is the easiest way that would be the most successful. Thanks for all the help.
That would be the route I'd go. But you might want to bottle a 12 pack without the sorbate, open one once in a while and pasturize when it gets a good fizz. (depending on the situation, this could take a good month and a half, but open one once a week after two weeks to make sure the bottles wont blow. Like I said before, with the sweetness you're looking for, you probably won't need to even add priming sugar)
That way down the road you'll be able to say to yourself "well, the carbonated stuff was just a little too much, I think I'll just keep it a still wine"
I don't know how the pumpkin would work, but a cyser makes a great champagne! My wife's due to have a baby within the week and I'm going to sure to crack open a bottle of the apple champaigne!
Personally, I've found I prefer my cider chilled a bit (just a bit) as it's kind of like a white wine. Glad I could be of help. I by no means claim to be a brewmaster, but I've done a lot of research and talked to a lot of people and I've had pretty good success with my cider/cysers.
Also, if you have a problem getting it clear after 3 months and a couple of racks, your lhbs should have pectic enzyme, and that will clear it within a day or two. Wine makers add this at the beginning of the process but you can add it anytime. It just bonds with the pectins that keep it foggy and settles at the bottom. I had to do this with my cranberry cider. I'll be posting that recipe soon.
Cheers to you both and let us know how it came out.
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