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Bock beer question
I'll be brewing a Bock this week and would like some input.
Recipe: 5 gallon
5 pds xtra light DME
4 1/2 pds Muunich malt
1/4 pd special B malt
1/4 pd choc malt
1.25 Haleteur hops 60 min
1/4 oz Liberty 15 min
Cry Havoc ale yeast
I'm using ale yeast as I don't want to wait 8 months to drink it.
Also the beer I'm trying to relicate is from a brew pub and the menu mentions a "grap nut" taste in the beer. Reading up on the internet it says roasting the grains will creat the grape nut flavor. So do I roast uncraked or cracked grains or does it make a difference?
Now leaning toward not roasting the malt since I am using the special B.
DC
While I understand the intrigue and the fun of roasting/toastong grain for a recipe, I prefer to not do it.
Mainly because of consistancy and repeatability. If you make a great batch you may not be able to get back to because depsite setting the oven to the same temp for the same time there are a lot of varibles that go into getting the same level of toast each time.
I would rather try and get the flavors from commercially available grains.
And with the huge variety available, I don't always see a benefit to "creating" my own.
With that said, certainly toasting some malt isn't a bad idea and its worht a try to see if that does in fact get you closer to your target flavor profile.
Your recipe (sans a lager yeast) looks like a decent dark amber ale to light brown ale, so give it a try.
The only thing I would be wary of is a pound of crystal. If you are going for that grape nut taste I peronally would drop the c-90 (will give a lttle fig/fruit but barely) and replace it with a 1/4-1/2 of special b.
That malt is like adding anchovies to your marinara instead of salt. No one will realize it is there, but will give a subtle complexity and that grape nut / fig flavor- a little goes a long way. I just ordered up ingredients for a maibock to have lagered for end of april, so I re-listened to the jamil show on the style. He makes a good point and says to use no crystal at all, let the maltiness come from the malt itself, not sweetness that the crystal will give. Now spec b is a crystal, but using a lower quantity for character I think is a happy medium. When I first read your post, and it says they roast some malt, I wouldn't doubt it if they mean special b all along, it is a darker longer roasted crystal, that may be their "secret" ingredient.
Just a suggestion.
thirsty wrote:
The only thing I would be wary of is a pound of crystal. If you are going for that grape nut taste I peronally would drop the c-90 (will give a lttle fig/fruit but barely) and replace it with a 1/4-1/2 of special b.
That malt is like adding anchovies to your marinara instead of salt. No one will realize it is there, but will give a subtle complexity and that grape nut / fig flavor- a little goes a long way. I just ordered up ingredients for a maibock to have lagered for end of april, so I re-listened to the jamil show on the style. He makes a good point and says to use no crystal at all, let the maltiness come from the malt itself, not sweetness that the crystal will give. Now spec b is a crystal, but using a lower quantity for character I think is a happy medium. When I first read your post, and it says they roast some malt, I wouldn't doubt it if they mean special b all along, it is a darker longer roasted crystal, that may be their "secret" ingredient.
Just a suggestion.
Brillian post
OK. Thanks for the suggestions. For what it's worth here's what I found and was using as a basis for the recipe.
.
.Brewing bock beers
Most beer recipes use a lightly kilned malt, i.e. pilsner, lager or pale ale malt, for the majority of the grist, but bock can be something of an exception to this rule. When making bock, many brewers look to Munich malt to play the lead role.
Bock was created before the days of specialty malts when things such as chocolate malt, roast barley and even crystal malt were unknown. As a result, most beers were made from a single type of malt. The flavor and color of the malt -- and therefore the finished beer -- were determined by conditions during malting, especially the kilning temperatures.
The Munich malt we use today appears to be a direct descendant of the malts once used in all Munich beers, including the bocks created in that city. Thus the use of Munich malt as the primary grain for a bock recipe is historically accurate. In addition, it provides a unique flavor and color contribution to the beer. One caveat: be sure to use only a Munich malt made from 2-row barley -- generally this means going for the imported products.
After Munich malt, the most common grain in bock recipes is crystal malt. If you select Munich malt as your base malt, you should use dark crystal malts for 6 to 10 percent of the grain bill. On the other hand, if you select pilsener malt as the base for your bock recipe, you'll need a bit more crystal, usually 15 to 20 percent.
The next grain that you will want to include is chocolate malt. Most recipes employ a small portion, ranging from 1 percent to 4 percent with an average of about 2 percent of the total grist bill.
The majority of all bock recipes have grain bills composed of just these four grains: pilsener or two-row malt, Munich malt, crystal (or caramel) malt and chocolate malt.
Of course bock recipes are the perfect place to use some malt extract. The higher gravities required by the style sometimes stretch the limits of mash capacities. An excellent bock beer can be made using a small mash and a generous dose of extract.
As for hops, bock beers require a light touch. Bitterness levels are low and little or no hop flavor or aroma should be detected. Classic German aroma varieties are favored such as Hallertau, Hersbruck, Tettnang, Spalt and even Saaz.
Build a recipe
When we put all this advice into practice, we can formulate a couple of different recipes. All are shooting for an original gravity of 1.066 to 1.068 and the formulations shown below are for a 5 gallon batch.
Pilsener-Based Munich-Based
Grain Recipe Recipe
Light Unhopped Extract 4 lbs 4 lbs
Pilsener/Two-row 1.75 lbs --
Munich Malt 1.5 lbs 4.5 lbs
Crystal Malt (90-120L) 2.25 lbs 1.25 lbs
Chocolate Malt 8 oz 4 oz
Hopping:
As mentioned above, classic German aroma hops are generally used for all of the hop additions in bock beers. The European varieties I would recommend are: Hallertau, Hersbruck, Tettnang, Spalt, and Saaz. Workable American-grown alternatives are Liberty, Crystal and Mt. Hood.
For bittering, you'll want 5 to 6 alpha acid units -- that's one ounce of 5% to 6% alpha acid hops, two ounces of 2.5% to 3.0% alpha acid hops or any other combination where the alpha acid percentage multiplied by the ounces equals 5 to 6. Boil these hops for 45 minutes to one hour.
If you want, you can add a small hop addition about 15 minutes before the end of the boil. Use one of the varieties listed above and add no more than one-half ounce.
Fermentation:
The critical part of bock fermentation is achieving proper lager fermentation temperatures. If you can achieve 50 to 55F, use a lager yeast that emphasizes malt complexity, such as the Wyeast Bavarian Lager yeast.
Strange as it may sound, if you are not able to achieve these cool temperatures for fermentation, you might want to make this beer using an ale yeast. The American Ale or Chico Ale yeast strain is typically very clean and can give you a somewhat lager-like product, especially if fermented at temperatures of 62 to 66F.
Regardless of which yeast you use, you'll want to allow a period of lagering after fermentation. For lager yeasts, this phase should be conducted at 35 to 40F. If you use the ale yeast, you might allow for a slightly warmer lagering temperature, say 40 to 50F.
I will replace Crystal with 1/4 pd special B.
thanks again
As far as roasting the malt there was a site that said roasting base malts will give specific flavors for specific roasting times. That's whay I was asking about roasting Munich. But Special B takes placeo f that so I'm gung ho for the special B.
DC
That is an extremely informative excerpt! where did it come from?
I suggested that special b because of your original description of how the "grape nut" flavor was evident from the brewer, hints of special b will achieve that. Again my suggestion came from listening to a maibock suggestion and I assumed traditional bock may be the same. It looks like however from this description that your original # of crystal is befitting. Maybe it is to give a sweetness that can't be extracted from munich like old less modified decoction gave? Maybe think of 1/2# of your C-90 and 1/4# spec b? I don't want to mess with your recipe, but after reading that, I would go with that grist.
thirsty wrote:
That is an extremely informative excerpt! where did it come from?
I suggested that special b because of your original description of how the "grape nut" flavor was evident from the brewer, hints of special b will achieve that. Again my suggestion came from listening to a maibock suggestion and I assumed traditional bock may be the same. It looks like however from this description that your original # of crystal is befitting. Maybe it is to give a sweetness that can't be extracted from munich like old less modified decoction gave? Maybe think of 1/2# of your C-90 and 1/4# spec b? I don't want to mess with your recipe, but after reading that, I would go with that grist.
Here's the link to the articlw I got the info from.
http://www.allaboutbeer.com/style/bock.html
When you said you'd go with that grist are you referring to the 1/2 pd 90 and 1/4 special b or the whole amount of 90 in article recipe? I have never used that dark of a crystal so I don't know what to expect. Seems that it is used for color as well as maybe offsetting some of the munich maltiness of that makes sense. I haven't used munich much either so I may be way off base. You're the much more experienced brewer so your observation makes sense that it could be too sweet. I am now totally confused. I'll have a beer and clear my head. 
DC
http://byo.com/component/resource/artic … erman-bock
Thirsty, this link to BYO shows 2 pds of pilsner malt getting roasted for 15 minutes. It has no crystal, chocolate or other grains except base malts in recipe. Go figure.
The recipe is all grain though so. If I was to do extraxt and grains would I just sub DME for the pilsner that is not getting roasted and could I sub some special b for the roasted pilsner, if so how much?
I'll likely stick with your idea and sub the B for the crystal. I just want to learn how to convert all grain recipes to extract so I'm less limited in choices.
thanks a ton
DC
Sorry, what I meant was if it were mine I would go w/ the 1/2# c90 and 1/4# spec b. that will give a little complexity and just the hint of your grape nuts.
I have no clue how to convert recipes, so I cant offer anything there.
thirsty wrote:
Sorry, what I meant was if it were mine I would go w/ the 1/2# c90 and 1/4# spec b. that will give a little complexity and just the hint of your grape nuts.
I have no clue how to convert recipes, so I cant offer anything there.
No problem. I'll go with your suggestion. Thanks for the advice. makes sense balancing it out. I can always tweak it one way or the other next time if It's something I like.
Cheers
DC
OK after getting suppllies and gettign ready to brew I realized I don't have any crystal malt so I will be brewing the following instead. I call it an American Bock Ale.
3 pds Pilsner DME
3.3 pds Pilsner LME
3 pds Munich
1/4 pd belgian chocolate malt
1/4 pd special b
1/4 pd victory
1/4 pd light german wheat malt
1/2 pd honey
1/2 pd sugar
1.25 oz glacier hops 6 % AA 60 min
.25 Williamette hops 3.5 % AA 20 min
Safale s-04 ale yeast
Since I don't have the crystal I used victory. Research shows it adds some body and nut flavor. I use it in a stout I make and it makes al lthe difference in the world in the stout.I am using some wheat malt for better head retention and the special B for the nut flavor and the choc for color. Honey and sugar are to get the gravity reading into spec for a traditional bock although maybe some of the ingredients are traditonal for it.
It'll be interesting to say the least. Any comments are appreciated. I will be starting this beer in a few hours so I'll be checking back to see what comments are made before doing it.
DC
Orgional gravity came in at 1.059. Added too much water to carboy and gravity adjustment put OG target at 1.061 so it was close.
DC
deafcone wrote:
Orgional gravity came in at 1.059. Added too much water to carboy and gravity adjustment put OG target at 1.061 so it was close.
DC
Transfered to 2ndry and gravity reading was 1.014. Will be bottling next weekend.
DC
I have been working on a Bock recipe and am curious, let us know how it turned out.
I think I might try decoction with this style, what I have been reading says decoction is the traditional way to get the bock maltiness. Here is some info on decoction if you are interested: http://brewlogblog.wordpress.com/2009/1 … technique/
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