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First All Grain - Protien Rest Question
I've got my mash tun all built and I'm ready to brew. I called my lhbs today and they have all the ingredients for the Oatmeal Stout I plan on brewing next week. When I plug the recipe into my home brew iPhone app (Brew Pal) I get some really, really strange figures for my mash schedule. The recipe is a 17.25lb grain bill, with .5lb of rice hulls. I want a 30 minute beta glucanase rest because my oats account for 8.5% of the bill. I have my batch size set to 5 gallons. To obtain an initial temp of 120 for the protien rest it tells me to strike with 6.7 gallons of water @167F, then for the Saccrification rest it tells me to add 4gallons @ 212F, for mash out 5gallons @ 212F, and then it tells me to sparge with -7gallons @170F. Anyone else see a problem here?
How does one obtain the 30min 120F rest? I'm guessing a full 6.7 gallons isn't necessary for the initial strike water.
Also how do you maintain a desired grist to liqour ratio, apparently my app hold no value in that haha.
I guess if its simple enough I'd appreciate it if someone could give me a mas schedule, or give me a few pointers on how to come up with my own.
Thanks as always,
Eric.
Also a more general question:
When you perform a protien rest for a given time does that time come off of the saccrifation rest? Meaning if you do a 20 min protien rest do you just go with a 40 min sac rest? or would you have a 20 min protien rest in front of your normal 60 min sac rest?
Thanks.
For your first all grain, I'd recommend a single step infusion mash, at 152. Though I admit I'm not sure that would work with oats. I did one Oatmeal Stout early on, and I'm sure I did a single infusion mash, and I'm sure it was a tasty beer.
Use a water to grain ratio anywhere from 1.0-1.5 quarts per pound, depending on how much your mash tun can hold. I think 1.44 is my default if I can fit it. The program should tell you how hot the water should be based on this information.
Then sparge until your kettle's full. Keep it simple.
I hope this helps.
Couple things. Almost 18 # in your first all-grain, really is asking a lot. That 18 # is why your liquids are so high. Especially when doing a multiple stage rest. When you have a way to add heat without adding water, it will work out better with multiple temp rests, but wait for it. As ksbrainard mentioned, keep your first one simple. My first was a wheat, that I did multi-step. I ended up mashing at maybe 145 degrees, using more than 11 gal of water and had a really low efficiency. Trust us and simplify. Figure out your equipment, and then maybe worry about a multi-step mash, using decoction (sp) or some other way to add the heat.
e_mott09 wrote:
Also a more general question:
When you perform a protien rest for a given time does that time come off of the saccrifation rest? Meaning if you do a 20 min protien rest do you just go with a 40 min sac rest? or would you have a 20 min protien rest in front of your normal 60 min sac rest?
Thanks.
No the time does not come off. Your sacch rest is designed to stay in that target temp range for the period of time because that is how long it takes for the enzymes to convert your starches at that temp. At the protein rest the alpha and beta amylase enzymes that cause this conversion are not active.
The mash schedule does look a bit out of whack, I do not normally brew with seperate infusions, so this is somewhat foreign, but I will try to make some sense of it. First off your TOTAL water to grist ratio should be about 1.25 qts per gallon. 18x1.25=22.5. Or 5.625 gallons. I would probably infuse an even 6 gallons. They have you infusing over 15 gallons. Not quite right. Also if you were to perform a stepped mash, it is customary to start with a thick mash, then throughout the steps your additional infusions will result in a thin mash. So If you were to do the steps I would recommend an infusion of just shy of 1 qt per pound, and go with 15 quarts, so 3.75 gallons of about 145 degrees, that should wind you up in the 125 degree rest range, which is optimal for the protein rest. Then you would want to add about 3 more gallons of 200 degree water, that should bring you close to the desired 152 sacch rest. Mash out only if you plan on fly sparging, then fly with 170 degrees. Or drain, and batch.
After saying all of that though, if this were mine, even after a hundred batches on my same tun, I would still just do a single infusion with the 6 gallons, and allow the base malt to help with the conversion of the oats. It may not yield full potential, but the flavor mouthfeel, will all contribute to the oatmeal stout.
Also a side note, 18#s for a 5 gallon batch sounds like a HIGH OG, have you checked what you are trying to brew here? Sounds like an oatmeal RIS, actually sounds yummy, just if you are aiming for a high OG, make sure the rest of your recipe is in balance and you pitch a crapload of healthy yeast.
Lastly, I would echo the others and go for a recipe that is forgiving for the first couple of runs with a new tun. They are ALL different, and you may wind up with a strike temp 5-8 degrees too high or low, and a drastic change in fermentability and mouthfeel. A simple pale ale can fake it through these errors, however an oatmeal stout is supposed to be creamy and chewy. But do not let me steer you away from your preferences. Just take really good notes about ALL of your temps, before infusion and after, it usually takes at least a few batches to start dialing in.
I'm a reletive newb here as well, and was wondering if you brewmasters could answer a few more simplistic questions regarding AG brewing as they are related to this link.
What is the purpose of a Protine rest? Compared to a general mash? On top of that, I hear people talking about mashing at 154ish range, as well as 145ish range...what would be the difference in the outcome of the wort with these? And one last question, some brewers on this site say they mash overnight...wouldn't a cooler tun loose heat over that time, and would that make it dificult to control a mash temp? For example, if you wanted to mash at 145*, I'm guessing you pour in 160*ish water to make sure the temp loss from the grain is compensated, but once you close the lid, how well does a cooler maintain that temp and for how long? What would be the added benefit of mashing for longer periods? And would it severely compromise the beer if you just ended up with a mash temp right in the middle, like 150*?
Maybe this is too many questions for one post, but I'm interested in the AG method as people seem to rave about the improved results over extract, and these are some finer points I'm a little foggy on. It seems Thirsty, Bruguru, Brewski and Brewchez are the most active go-to people on this site, so I'm wondering if you could have the paitience to explain these more basic points to us young and ambitious extract brewers. Thanks. Of course, anyone can chime in!
sewer_urchen wrote:
And would it severely compromise the beer if you just ended up with a mash temp right in the middle, like 150*?
This is actually the most common of mash temps, and serves the purpose of hitting the upper and lower end of each rest.
Each temp range has its own enzymatic activity, so by keeping the mash in a range for a period of time, the starches from the grain convert to sugar. Each enzyme however converts to different sugars. The protein rest allows the grains that have high protein like wheat and in this case oats, to break down into more simpler starches so that conversion will be easier at the saccherification level.
The 140-147ish range produces beta amylase activity, and temps of 153-159 produces alpha amylase activity. These enzymes convert the starch to sugar, however each one produces some sugars the other does not.
So to maximize potential yield, a rest at each temp would be most beneficial. That is why many shoot for a happy medium with the 149-152 range. The alpha rest converts much quicker, most say 10 minutes for the majority of conversion, and completely 20-30 minutes, there still may be potential conversion in the beta range, (which takes much longer for full conversio) so those who do an extended mash, (longer than 1 hour) should be doing it at the beta temp range.
The advantage to a lower more thorough rest, is the complexity of sugars, a higher yield, which makes for better efficiency. It also means that the yeast will consume a broader spectrum of sugar, and leave a lower finishing gravity, a higher ABV, and a thinner mouthfeel. A higher mash temp on the flipside leaves some less fermentable residual sugar behind contributing to a thicker creamier mouthfeel.
Lager yeasts can usually consume a couple of more complex sugars than ale yeasts, so that is why a lager finishes slightly lower than an ale for FG, and that does contribute slightly to it being cleaner.
Those are some general basics, if you really want to get deeper into the actual chemistry of the whys, I highly recommend reading (slowly) the late great Greg Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer. (its not just about lagers!)
Thanks Thirsty. That sums up anwers to pretty much all those questions. One follow up to your answer though...If the alpha enzymes only take a short time, and the beta's longer, does that mean an overnight mash makes the best of both, starting at a 154* range, and after an hour or so starting to cool down to the 140's? Would that result in the highest efficency potential? Or maybe if the cooler was a good insulator, getting it going at 155* and after an hour opening the lid and letting it cool to 148-9 and re-lidding it to hold it there for a long time?
Or on the flipside, would going for the alpha rest kill your chances of geting the benefit of the beta and so it would be better to start at the cooler temp and then raise it to the apha temp after?
Thanks again, sometimes people more experienced (at anything) can take for granted basic information those starting out don't know.
Would wheat and oats be the two most common grains that would require a protien rest, or would there be some other's new AG brewers should know about?
sewer_urchen wrote:
Or on the flipside, would going for the alpha rest kill your chances of geting the benefit of the beta and so it would be better to start at the cooler temp and then raise it to the apha temp after?
IF doing both rests then yes you would want to hold the beta temp long first then raise the temp to the alpha level. After rechecking some notes I have found that beta amylase actually becomes inactive above 149, so those doing a long rest would not want to ever have their mash above 149. The proper method is to make the first infusion able to strike the mash at either a beta temp range or lower, then after the rest is complete, raise to the next levek by ways of heat transfer, additional infusions or decoction, the latter being the most traditional, for it pulls the melanoidens from the grain resulting in a more malt pronounced wort.
Lots of good info here.
I was set on doing a protien rest because I am afraid of having a stuck sparge my first time through. Is that something I shouldn't be worried about? I've just read that the oatmeal is quite viscous. I'm going to be using rice hulls as well, so if you guys are saying not to worry about the protien rest, I'll listen. Thirsty, why did you say only mash out if I am fly sparging? I am not, but I didn't think that had anything to do with it.
I probably should have mentioned this before guys, but the recipe I'm making actually brewchez's. His is for 7 gallons, and I've just decided to make mine 6 because of my available equipment. It can be found here. but I'll include the recipe at the bottom anyways.
Also since it came up, I'm brewing this for a friend and he'd like cinnamon in it. I was going to do 2 sticks at ten minutes. Then when its time to rack to secondary I was going to add one or two more based on strength. Any tips?
12.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)
1.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM)
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)
2.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 23.5 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.00 %] (30 min) Hops 7.2 IBU
1 Pkgs WLP002 English Ale yeast
Sorry forgot the link and recipe.
http://www.brewingkb.com/homebrewing/oa … -3707.html
e_mott09 wrote:
Thirsty, why did you say only mash out if I am fly sparging? I am not, but I didn't think that had anything to do with it.
I was going to do 2 sticks at ten minutes. Then when its time to rack to secondary I was going to add one or two more based on strength. Any tips?
It is not necessary for a mashout when batch sparging. The idea for the MO is to halt conversion, and make the sugar less viscous and rinse aesier off the husks when a gentle sparge is being applied. When batching, the second or third addition of water then a stir will do this very same thing, and rinse the grain free before the next batch is runoff.
When adding spices, I usually like to just add them to secondary. I would snap a cinnamon stick in half, place it in a cast iron skillet for 4-5 minutes or until fragrant, and throw it into your secondary. Wouldnt even bother with it in the boil, just my opinion.
So it went really well. I had someone there to help stir, read thermometers, set timers.. that kind of thing, and it helped quite a bit. I hit my target mash temp right on the head, I kinda impressed myself for a first timer haha. Anyways, I just ended up going with the single infusion mash of 152*F. I just tasted it the other day and took my FG reading and it is real damn delicious.. that Brewchez really knows what he's doing. My OG was 1.070, FG was 1.012, and that comes out to 7.75% abv. I went ahead and added powdered cinnamon to my gravity reading sample to see how intense I wanted that flavor to be and decided its best as really slight and subtle.
Thanks for helping my first AG batch turn out as a success, guys.
Would you guys recommend letting this batch condition in the carboy for a while or let it bottle condition for it to mellow out? This is my first big beer and first stout.
e_mott09 wrote:
Would you guys recommend letting this batch condition in the carboy for a while or let it bottle condition for it to mellow out? This is my first big beer and first stout.
I thought the recipe looked familiar but I had to check the link to be sure.
Well seeing how its my recipe I'll say this:
Just ferment it for two weeks, check to be sure its done. The bottle or keg. Its ready to go from there, but I find a month rest for it seems to make it taste better.
And 1.063 isn't that big of a deal to worry about some sort of mellowing out period.
Oh and I wouldn't bother with a protein rest. I do single infusion at 152-154F.
If I knew we were talking about my recipe I would have chimed in earlier, sorry. But Thirsty was doing a good job!
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