The Full Boil Advantage?
Actually, dmofot, yes I was correct with what I said.
I was referring to more water for the boil using the same amount of hops, if you have 3 gallons and use lots of hops, compared to 5 gallons and use less hops, that WILL affect the bitterness, which is what I said, and yes, I was correct.
The AA in the hops themself won't change, but what I said is the amount of oils release and the total bitterness will change.
A smaller volume of boiled wort will lead to a lower level of hops utilization, which means you will have to add more hops to adjust, just as dmofot stated. This will also limit the upper ceiling of bitterness you could hope to attain. So if you can do a full 5 gallon boil (actually you would want to do about 6 - 6.5 gal pre-boil vol) you will get better hop utilization, meaning you can use less hops than someone doing a smaller volume. Your bitterness ceiling is also raised, if you would like to brew big hop monsters.
One other advantage to doing a full boil is you get less darkening of the wort, making it possible to brew lighter beers, if you wish.
The big disadvantage to doing a full boil is the time. It certainly takes longer to get your bigger volume of wort up to boil and takes quite a bit longer to cool it down to pitching temps. With that said, I still much prefer to use a full volume boil.
Well, that makes sense. I never really worried about the color though because once I add it to my clean water in the fermenter it immediately lightens up anyway. When I was searching for brewing equipment I bought the largest kettle I could find... I guess I should use it!
I just bought ingredients to brew a coffee porter, so maybe this time around I will try boiling all 6 gallons. One question though: the recipe I am using is based on boiling 2-2.5 gallons. Does this mean i should not use the full amount of hops that I bought?
I probably would just stick to the recipe. This whole hop utilization thing is a bit system specific, so until you really get to know how your system works, you should be fine. It might make your porter a bit more hoppy, but I would imagine that everything will be OK anyway. Most porters don't include too many hops, anyway.
Also, the darkening of the wort is really only a problem on lighter beers. If you are making a really pale ale or start making lagers, this would be a problem. In fact, my guess is you would have a hard time making a pilsner or similar beer that matched color guidelines by doing a partial boil. This, of course, is only a problem if you care about color guidelines or enter your beers into competitions.
As I said, and I stick to my guns, using more hops with less of a boil, WILL increase bitterness. Has nobody else read Papazian's book? All the claims against this can by made, but the fact remains, if you add MORE hops to a boil, that will increase bitterness. If you use a 3 gallon boil, but use the same amount of hops as a 5 gallon, the bitterness will again increase.
A smaller volume of wort with more hops added will caused the same amount of hop oils to be dissolved, yet the same amount in less wort does make it more bitter. How do I know this? Because I have it done many times.
Fine, if the rest of you dispute this, I won't argue it. Believe as you want.
It's not worth the argument.
cubx wrote:
As I said, and I stick to my guns, using more hops with less of a boil, WILL increase bitterness. Has nobody else read Papazian's book? All the claims against this can by made, but the fact remains, if you add MORE hops to a boil, that will increase bitterness. If you use a 3 gallon boil, but use the same amount of hops as a 5 gallon, the bitterness will again increase.
A smaller volume of wort with more hops added will caused the same amount of hop oils to be dissolved, yet the same amount in less wort does make it more bitter. How do I know this? Because I have it done many times.
Fine, if the rest of you dispute this, I won't argue it. Believe as you want.
It's not worth the argument.
It is worth the argument if there is a clear answer. Honestly cubx, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm an IPA junkie and I try to do everything I can to make them good. I don't have the Papazian book, but I've heard it's a GREAT book, but that it's also a little outdated and there are some things that need to be updated. So here's the reason behind needing less hops if doing a full boil, two words - percent utilization. Doing a full boil will give you a higher percent utilization for your hops, in other words you extract more bitterness when you have more volume. This is why you can use less hops in a full boil.
I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy, so I did a quick Google search and found this:
http://byo.com/feature/467.html which down in the page says this:
Volume of Boil: The greater the volume of wort being boiled, the more effective the extraction of hop bitterness will be. Don't confuse this with final wort volume in the IBU formula. For brewers with smaller brewpots who can only do a partial wort boil, it is important to realize that the reduced volume of the boil will reduce the extraction of the hops.
Specific Gravity of Wort: Dense, high-gravity worts with lots of dissolved sugars will reduce the ability of the wort to extract alpha acids in the boil. The purchase of a large-volume brewpot (seven gallons or greater) and the attendant accessories such as a high-output burner is even more appealing when you consider that a reduced wort volume combined with the increased gravity associated with only boiling a portion of the batch and then later topping off to final volume is a double whammy against effective hop bitterness extraction.
And just as an example, try going here: http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/bitterness.html
It's a bitterness calculator. I just used some generic numbers to plug in and it's right on the mark. So try punching in something like this:
Batch Size: 5
Boil Volume: 6
Original Gravity: 1.055
Weight (oz.): 1
Choose any hop
Time Boiled: 60
I chose Amarillo and it gave me 25.1 IBUs. I then went back and the only thing I changed was the Boil Volume (changed to 2.5) and I then got 14.1 IBUs. I would have to use 1.78oz. of Amarillo in a 2.5 gallon boil to equal the 25.1 IBUs I can get with 1oz. of Amarilla in a 6 gallon boil. Now, and here is what I think you are referring to - if I do a 2.5 gallon boil and my final batch size is also 2.5 gallons, then yes, that 1oz. of Amarillo jumps to 46.2 IBUs. But what the original poster was asking about was boiling a smaller volume and then diluting to hit 5 gallons.
See, the problem is you can't figure out IBUs on the amount of hops and their alpha acid percentage alone. Things like boiling more water and having a more vigorous boil will increase your hop utilization and make your beer more bitter. Another example of this is that somebody who boils their wort on a small stove will probably have a less bitter beer than somebody who uses a large BTU burner. The large BTU burner can more likely give a more vigorous boil, which in turn will increase the extraction rate, which again will raise the hop utilization rate.
I'm not sure if you use any of the brewing software out there that you have to pay for, but I believe all of them take into account the boil volume and batch size.
Does that make more sense cubx?
DT
I do have Papzian's book and it has been my bible for several years. Everything I've ever heard supports dmofot's explanation including Papazian's book and my own experience supports this as well. I believe there is even a chart that akes into account boil size and boil length and the percentage of hop utilization. Maybe I'm wrong about what Papazian says and believe me I will check when I get home it has been quite awhile since I re-read that particular section. Obviously the more hops added to any size boil will give you more of a hop flavor but the percentage of hop utilization directly corelates to boil size and length.
If this helps the argument at all...
I brewed my coffee porter with 4 gallons in the pot instead of 2.5. It took WAY longer to brew this one (obviously), but the biggest difference was the taste. It was so bitter... almost undrinkable. It didn't taste like coffee at all either. So, bitterness intensifies with the more water you add? I would say yes on this one.
FYI - Here is the recipe I made
1 lb. Chocolate malt
1.2 lb. Crystal 60L
6lbs Coopers Amber LME (recipe called for 6.6 lbs... oops)
1oz Galena - bittering (one hour)
1/2 oz. Fuggle - Flavoring (recipe called for more Galena, but I substituted) (30 minutes)
1/2 oz. Cascade - Aroma (at flame out)
6 cups of freshly ground/brewed Organic Ethiopian coffee (last 15 minutes of boil)
Whitelabs English Ale Yeast (forget the number)
Like I said, the taste, quite frankly, GROSS. I hope it mellows out a bit....
I have never made a porter before.. is this normal for a very green porter to taste like?
After re-reading this, I actually don't think we were all talking about the same thing.
Either way, I don't want to start an argument. It's just not worth it.
Good god almighty... an ounce of Galena around 12% AA for an hour? Yeah... I would say that is going to be VERY bitter!
I tried one at a homebrew club about a year ago. 1 oz of Chinook and 1 oz of Cascade (I think)... oh my god was it bitter!
I made my cherry bomb a year who and used Chinook. Too hoppy. I don't mind a hoppy beer, but it is definitely not my preference.
But I don't think I've ever had a bitter porter in my life.