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My air lock has bubbles from the beer in it..
Just to clear up what some might be confused about, even bottling from primary you need to syphon the beer off to a bottling bucket or carboy to add the priming sugar. that's not considered a secondary. some might add sugar to the individual bottles or add the priming sugar right to primary and wait for it to resettle but I think most of us syphon off to bottling vessel.
DC
Irondavy wrote:
Why are we not using secondaries any more? Are you keg conditioning so secondary is really in the keg? or is there something else that I am missing all together?
Sorry to hijack the thread.
ID
Several people that do not keg, have given up on secondaries and are now going with exteneded primaries.
I normally recommend people leave beer in primary at least 14 days.
Those of us using kegs are sort of doing secondary. Albeit usually cold, underpressure and we can serve from the "secondary". But functionally using a keg is the same type of step as using a second fermenter.
bruguru wrote:
[ I think this logic stems from 20 years ago when there was alot of problems with contaminated yeast, and racking early was a matter of good beer, and undrinkable beer.
In the recent years of microbrew expansion, and even within our own hobby, we forget that 95% of beer produced is a lager. So when talking about a beer in general, a lager can almost be assumed. Now many think that the secondary in a lager is for cold dtorage and maturation, and when we secondary ales, we are essentially lagering an ale for these reasons, however there are 3 distinctive steps- primary ferm, secondary ferm, and lagering.
By definition this is not true. Secondaries do serve a purpose and it is exactly what it sounds like, the second part of fermentation. To properly create a lager beer, the initial ferment should be racked to secondary, leaving the yeast and trub behind. This should be done when the ferment is about 65-75% complete. The only yeast carried over is that which is left in suspension, and a second fermentation period is allowed in this new vessel, at lager yeast temps to create a clean finished and fully attenuated beer. At that time, a d-rest is performed if elected (depends on original pitching conditions) then it is lagered. This is where we as HBers usually call it a secondary. Whether it is stored for time at warm temps or at traditionally cold temps, what we call "secondaries" (because of a second vessel) is actually a lager phase- or storage, only to produce a more mellow and attractive beer. The true secondary phase just does not exist in ale brewing, because we let our beer fully attenuate in the same vessel. Large scale breweries and those who are rich, get to experience both phases in one vessel by using a conical. By allowing the beer to ferm and dumping the yeastpartway through, they are essentially performing a primary and secondary ferm in the same vessel.
Looks like I'm going to ditch the secondary since all I do are Ales. I thought that you could get off flavors from the beer sitting on the yeast for too long but as Brugru said that seems to be logic from 20 years ago and does not apply to today. Looks like my big glass carboys are going to get more use than the small ones from now on.
Thanks guys
ID
Thirsty wrote:
By definition this is not true. Secondaries do serve a purpose and it is exactly what it sounds like, the second part of fermentation. To properly create a lager beer, the initial ferment should be racked to secondary, leaving the yeast and trub behind.
I understand what your getting at, i've only made 2 lagers, and let's just say without refrigeration equipment it was a huge pain in the ass. What I think Irondavy is getting at is that everything he has read says to secondary. There are very few recipes that say not to secondary, even ales. This is quite confusing starting out, and it's more of a preference I think. Alot of information, or things that your supposed to do are not practical once you actually start to brew.
Mashing in comes to mind, as I do it the night before in a 10 gallon cooler, where alot of other people wouldn't even thing of such a thing because of contamination of bacteria in the grain. I've actually done it and it works out quite well. You would be hard pressed to find anyone writing about this way to mash. Pitching yeast comes to mind also as there are many many many writings that say a 1 pint starter is enough, where I found that anything less than a half gallon starter does not give me the results from my yeast that i'm looking for. ie: aroma, quickness of fermentation, and flocculation, or final gravity.
What i suggest Irondavy, is to just try it, I love saving time brewing especially All grain batches that take 8 hours, with my mashing in the night before, I save 2 hours, with my plate chiller, that takes another hour off, with my pump, that taks 15-20 minutes off. All of these things you have to learn for yourself, if you think your beer is better out of the secondary, then do it, if you don't see a difference like most of us what the hell is the point.
Thanks for the insight bruguru. I have a batch in primary that I was going to move over to secondary this week I will be adventurous and see what happens if I move it directly to a keg. Should I put a hop bag on the end of my siphon hose to act as a filter? I previously have primed the keg with some sugar and then waited for the carbonation to be right..... This procedure is still correct right? I am assuming every thing is the same you just skip secondary and in my case it goes straight into the keg.
thanks
ID
Haha.. this is awesome. I love how a simple question has be come an awesome discussion on the plus and minus of secondary fermentation. I'm currently doing an imperial nut brown which is a Ale. Now from what people are saying i should just skip this step and wait a week longer before bottling. Then wait the 10 days to condition the bottles. I like easy; however, this is my first batch and no offense to the seasoned HB-ers here but i would like to do secondary. I'm a clean freak when it comes to something that has the word "ferment" in it. I already sanitized most of the stuff i'm going to use. But plan on cleaning it again and re-sanitizing all of it. because i believe in the better safe then sorry theory. I don't have a keg system only bottles.
I do like the idea of a clearer beer. My understanding is secondary will help clear the beer and make it more presentable. Like i said earlier i still want to go though all the steps to get a full grasp on it. But is this step necessary or will the 2 weeks also clear it up in the primary? This is a great site and i love beer and information. This seems to be the place for both. So please keep the information coming i do appreciate a good conversation on anything beer or brewing it.
caperneoignis wrote:
Haha.. this is awesome. I love how a simple question has be come an awesome discussion on the plus and minus of secondary fermentation. I'm currently doing an imperial nut brown which is a Ale. Now from what people are saying i should just skip this step and wait a week longer before bottling. Then wait the 10 days to condition the bottles. I like easy; however, this is my first batch and no offense to the seasoned HB-ers here but i would like to do secondary. I'm a clean freak when it comes to something that has the word "ferment" in it. I already sanitized most of the stuff i'm going to use. But plan on cleaning it again and re-sanitizing all of it. because i believe in the better safe then sorry theory. I don't have a keg system only bottles.
I do like the idea of a clearer beer. My understanding is secondary will help clear the beer and make it more presentable. Like i said earlier i still want to go though all the steps to get a full grasp on it. But is this step necessary or will the 2 weeks also clear it up in the primary? This is a great site and i love beer and information. This seems to be the place for both. So please keep the information coming i do appreciate a good conversation on anything beer or brewing it.
There's nothing wrong with doing a secondary if that's what a person wants to do. It will give you a clearer beer. It's just been learned over time that it is a step that is not mandatory like a primary fermentation is. There are yeasts that will form a hard cake on the bottom of the fermentor giving you a pretty clear beer without a primary and just syphoning off of it into a bottling bucket at bottling time is all that is needed. If you want to use a secondary be sure everything is sanitary. if you already cleaned it and sanitized it then just resanitizing it is all that is needed. Also be sure when you syphon off into secondary that the syphon tubing or racking cane is at the bottom of the secondary vessel so as to not cause spashing or you will oxidize your beer. No pouring or splashing after fermentation.
DC
Oh OK... yea i know it was an optional thing. But i think it will be cool to have an extra clear dark ale. Ive heard of not letting your beer splash which is some what hard when your feeling a barrel. theres always some splash just from inertia and open space.
caperneoignis wrote:
Ive heard of not letting your beer splash which is some what hard when your feeling a barrel. theres always some splash just from inertia and open space.
There are a few ways around this. When you say filling a barrel I assume you mean corney keg? If so you have access to CO2. If you purge your keg with 10 seconds of co2 by connecting a black QD to the end of your co2 line, and hook up to your liquid out post, not gas in post, then your co2 will fill from the bootom at the dip tube. This will provide a nice safe blanket for your beer to land in without oxidizing. You can also hook up your transfer hose to this same post and fill your keg from the bottom up through the dip tube. Last you can still use siphon hose, as long as you get the end to the very bottom. That little bit of splashing with first exit isnt going to harm anything.
Back to the secondarying question of the OP and some responses since. When it comes down to this step, secondary fermentation should really just be called "bulk conditioning". (except for the true secondary fermentation I pointed out earlier in the lager fermentation process).
So it is up to the individual brewer as to determine if they feel bulk conditioning is necessary for that particular beer. Typically average gravity beers, .038-.060 will not reap gigantic benefits from the condition, (unless ingredients required to mellow are added) and straight to packaging is fine. Also styles like hefes and british ales do not need clarity and even desire yeast character. Larger beers > .060 would probably benefit, so it is something to consider, especially like an imperial nut brown, if it is an imperial, usually it carries some warm alcohol, it may also carry some fusels with it as well, a bulk condition may mellow these before packaging.
Before I brew the beer, I like to map out some target times. (but alaways let FG be the determining factor)The dopplebock I brewed 2 weeks ago, I am not even going to check gravity until 3-4 weeks in primary, then move to a secondary for another 2 weeks, it will then be lagered for 3 months- then packaged. The amber I brewed 4 days ago, will probably come out of primary in 2 weeks, and go straight to keg, dryhop for a week, then get chilled and served. Primary to glass in 3 weeks. Just never rush a beer or its process because you cant wait to drink it- you will only wind up drinking a beer that could have been better, and you will run out of it sooner.
As Thirsty was pointing out, one of the nicer aspects of kegging (besides no bottles to wash/prep/fill and drinking how ever much beer you happen to want), is a ready supply of CO2 to blanket and protect your hard earned fermentation results. Most of what I make is beer, but I also make wine, and had two carboys of bulk aging Red Mountain Syrah to bottle over the weekend. I keep my empty kegs charged up with CO2 just to keep the bugs at bay, so I almost always have an empty keg full of CO2 handy. They work great as a small volume light weight supply for when I am transferring beer or wine. One of my picnic taps is hooked up with a gas in connector on the end of four feet of tubing, so I can pull CO2 from the tops of my kegs, even a partially full one if I had too. Point being, I had a CO2 blanket in the bottling bucket when I filled it, and a CO2 blanket in the carboy as it was emptying. In theory, no oxygen. I suppose I could have even purged the bottles themselves prior to filling, but I didn't go that far. Maybe I should have just to ease up on the bottle shock.
So i should probably do secondary for my Imperial nut brown? and the splashing i was referring to is in the carboy for secondary (which i was some what being a smart ass). My beer OG was 60 and i measured that with a hydrometer. So im guess secondary would benefit the beer?
If you don't have a kegging set u[p with the CO2 tank you can purchase one of these and purge your carboys and such with just a blast into the open neck of your carboy to prevent oxidation from splashing. Which in my opinion is the number one reason to avoid using secondaries. However if you purge your secondary you don't really need to worry about it. These use disposable 12 or 16 gm CO2 cartridges that are fairly cheap. Just avoid paintball gun cartridges as some of these have oil for the guns in them which can't be good for your beer.
If it were me I would probably secondary an imperial nut brown for clarity and conditioning. If you used a highly flocculating yeast such as most british or london strains you would be fine skipping the secondary. It's all up to you.
Just make sure to purge any vessel that you are transferring into.
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/BALL_LOC … 84C148.cfm
Crabnut wrote:
I suppose I could have even purged the bottles themselves prior to filling, but I didn't go that far. Maybe I should have just to ease up on the bottle shock.
If you can this is best, however there are 3 techniques that also work:
1. When filling (with beer- I cannot attest to wine) let the foam of either the beer or starsan rise to the bottle rim, this will force out any o2, displacing the headspace with foam, (I think brewchez does this sometimes by giving the bottle a slight knock to encourage slight foam)
2. The second, is to leave the bottles uncapped for a few minutes, allowing absorbed fermentation co2 to escape and that will displace the o2 before capping. We have discussed in other threads how fermentation, because of a somewhat closed system, build a little pressure and the produced co2, is then forced into the green beer, sometimes airlock activity isnt because of continued fermentation- but rather this gas coming out of solution causing the bubbling. This affect will work the same when bottling, a small bit of that absorbed and comes out, thus replacing the headspace.
3. Use O2 absorbing bottlecaps. They cost $1 more per gross, I have seen many debates on whether they work or not and if it is a waste of money, I feel for the extra dollar, who cares?
To caper about this batch- my suggestion is to taste a sample and determine for yourself. There may be some complexity there that may have you wanting to secondary- or bulk condition, or it may be fine to go straight to bottle. Big beers I usually always secondary, but an example, an RIS I did 3 weeks ago, buckled my knees when I tasted it, I am going direct to keg with this tonight or tomorrow. This goes against almost everything I said earlier, but this beer tastes amazing now. I will probably end up gunning a case or so off the keg and letting it age 1-2 years anyhow, and drink the keg slowly letting it mature, but nonetheless, I am skipping the secondary just because I feel there are no hot alcohols or harsh edges to this one.
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