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Propane burner indoors?
After seeing Jen's recent post on her new Nano-brewery and after hearing about how a buddy of mine is converting his garage into a brewing area, I got to thinking about how I could get inside to brew. Currently I brew on the back patio with a propane burner/turkey fryer. Here's the question, is it safe to do 6.5 gallon boil with the propane burner in the garage? I realize there are safety precautions like making sure there isn't any flammable material near by, and what not, but is propane a clean burning gas?
Any other concerns about brewing in the garage?
I would love to brew in the garage and get out of the rain, snow, wind, and all the other bad weather we get here in Oregon but my wife is sure that I'll "burn down the house".
Before I started actively hinting (which meant staring at shed pages for extended periods, sighing deeply and making puppy eyes) I asked I actually considered that... whether or not propane would be safe inside. So I did a little light research.
Propane its self is safe enough (it's used inside house trailers etc and many older homes actually run on propane rather than natural gas). but every burning process consumes oxygen and leaves carbon monoxide (reference 3rd grade science experiments with matches and coke bottles!) so a certain degree of ventilation is called for...
I'd imagine in a garage you could crack the door or open a window and get the same effect.
During most of the the year I brew in side my garage with the door wide open.
But in winter its too damn cold to do that, so I close the door completely. Running the burner actually ends up raising the temperature 5-10 degrees so its nice. I do however open a nearby garage window a few inches.
Carbon monoxide is heavier than air anyway and sinks down, so the window open doesn't help much likely. But it seems like a proper safety precaution.
I also have a CO monitor that is about 5 feet away from the kettle and is 2 feet off the floor. It has never gone of while brewing (or ever for that matter).
Hope that helps.
burning propane doesn't produce carbon monoxide; that's a common misconception...(the only byproducts are water and CO2) Besides the fact that burning propane consumes oxygen as previously noted, it is the safest burnable to have around. what you need to be concerned with is the fact that gaseous propane is much heavier than air and if there is a leak in any part of you assembly it will pool in the low spots of there you're brewing. this is obviously bad because because any small spark can evaporate your garage or house (whatever you're brewing in). As long as you have a good amount of ventilation you can prevent pooling. I would tend to store the tank and burner somewhere other than my house, though.
1n1m3g wrote:
burning propane doesn't produce carbon monoxide; that's a common misconception...(the only byproducts are water and CO2) Besides the fact that burning propane consumes oxygen as previously noted, it is the safest burnable to have around. what you need to be concerned with is the fact that gaseous propane is much heavier than air and if there is a leak in any part of you assembly it will pool in the low spots of there you're brewing. this is obviously bad because because any small spark can evaporate your garage or house (whatever you're brewing in). As long as you have a good amount of ventilation you can prevent pooling. I would tend to store the tank and burner somewhere other than my house, though.
Some good to know facts there. I wasn't aware of the CO2 vs CO thing. Any references to back that up.
I am not challenging you per se, but your a science guy... I am a science guy... show me the reference so I can be legit when I tell others about this in the future. I think its valuable information for people to know.
Do you know if natural gas produced CO when combusted?
1n1m3g wrote:
Do you know if natural gas produced CO when combusted?
Furnaces for houses running on natural gas can release Carbon Monoxide if the heat exchanger has a crack. I think thats why all those detectors came out...
well, i thought that it was common knowledge that propane produced only CO2 and water (I guess this comes from my background in chemistry). after looking for references to back me up on this, I have found conflicting evidence. on one site, Elmhurst College chemistry department, they state that the only byproducts of hydrocarbon combustion are CO2 and H2O. On the other hand, an article from the US Dept of Energy states that vehicles running on only propane produce organic compounds, nitrogen oxide, carbon monoxide, as well as H2O and CO2, albeit at much reduced levels compared to gasoline burning vehicles.
So, I will have to retract my statement that propane doesn't produce CO. I guess that formation of combustion byproducts depends on the situation at hand, although I'm now not sure what is happening when we brew.
Either way, to be in the safe side, don't burn a propane burner in an enclosed area. 
So no enclosed area, but ventilation (crack the garage door and open a window) is fine? Next I need to figure out how to pipe water to a garage sink.....
Thanks for the info!
The problem with using indoors is the large amount of O2 it takes to use a burner, even with the doors cracked and a cross flow through your brewing area you still may be in for problems...you also want to make sure it burns with a blue flame and not a yellow flame, that's when CO becomes a problem from incomplete combustion......if you want to brew indoors a large volume exhaust hood is a good idea.....or just go electric....
1n1m3g wrote:
burning propane doesn't produce carbon monoxide; that's a common misconception...(the only byproducts are water and CO2) Besides the fact that burning propane consumes oxygen as previously noted, it is the safest burnable to have around. what you need to be concerned with is the fact that gaseous propane is much heavier than air and if there is a leak in any part of you assembly it will pool in the low spots of there you're brewing. this is obviously bad because because any small spark can evaporate your garage or house (whatever you're brewing in). As long as you have a good amount of ventilation you can prevent pooling. I would tend to store the tank and burner somewhere other than my house, though.
My bad! 
c0rky2643 wrote:
So no enclosed area, but ventilation (crack the garage door and open a window) is fine? Next I need to figure out how to pipe water to a garage sink.....
Thanks for the info!
PVC piping is my hero. Cheap, light, easy to work with and food safe.
1n1m3g wrote:
well, i thought that it was common knowledge that propane produced only CO2 and water (I guess this comes from my background in chemistry). after looking for references to back me up on this, I have found conflicting evidence. on one site, Elmhurst College chemistry department, they state that the only byproducts of hydrocarbon combustion are CO2 and H2O. On the other hand, an article from the US Dept of Energy states that vehicles running on only propane produce organic compounds, nitrogen oxide, carbon monoxide, as well as H2O and CO2, albeit at much reduced levels compared to gasoline burning vehicles.
So, I will have to retract my statement that propane doesn't produce CO. I guess that formation of combustion byproducts depends on the situation at hand, although I'm now not sure what is happening when we brew.
Either way, to be in the safe side, don't burn a propane burner in an enclosed area.
This is how it works. In an Ideal combustion reaction, the only products are CO2 and H2O, but if the fire doesn't have quite enough oxygen (on a molecular level not every oxygen atom will reach every molecular interaction) there will be carbon monoxide and soot produced. There will be a level of CO produced in every combustion reaction, so stay ventilated.
meisterofpuppets wrote:
This is how it works. In an Ideal combustion reaction, the only products are CO2 and H2O, but if the fire doesn't have quite enough oxygen (on a molecular level not every oxygen atom will reach every molecular interaction) there will be carbon monoxide and soot produced. There will be a level of CO produced in every combustion reaction, so stay ventilated.
Good advice all around I think is to stay ventilated.
Yup - even burning a candle will produce SOME CO Carbon Monoxide. Propane is just as CO friendly as Natural Gas.
It comes down to the design of the equipment and your awareness. And you need to pay attention to this. If it was designed for outdoor use only, the quality of everything from the line hookups to the burner affect the likelyhood of a leak or incomplete combustions. Let's break things down.
CO: Propane and NG.
NG equipment is almost always designed to be a permantly installed device, and by a professional, and leak tested. The indoor grade equipment is either very efficient (releasing extremely low levels of CO) or has a ventilation exit (eg, your gas furnace) to the outside, separating the exhaust gases from the heat. NG BBQ's are not as efficient and may have more CO emissions, but they are designed to be outdoors and aren't held to the CO emission standards as NG ovens/ranges. People have died from CO emission from running their BBQ's inside, and this has nothing to do with the gas type. Propane, on the other hand, can also burn very efficiently indoors (check out Indoor Propane Heaters on google) and also, when designed to be indoors, has very low CO emissions. A UL certified indoor propane heater must meet these standards, and accompanies other safety features and warnings. It's never a bad idea to have a CO detector anytime you are burning gasses of any kind indoors.
Fire safety: Propane and NG
Breaking down the risk for fire is in two categories: a fire that was started by the device (something cumbusable caught fire from the open flame) and the risk of an explosion due to the gas getting into the air, then igniting. FAR more fires, injuries, deaths occur from the open flame issue, or hot ambers/sparks originating from the device. Devices designed for outdoor use do not have to account for sparks and flameups that are typical on a BBQ. A BBQ on NG or Propane would pose an equal risk if used inside. Explosion risk is much different with Propane and NG. While the risk is low for either, it's important to understand the increase risk with Propane if you choose to use it inside. Propane will pool to the lowest level in the room and sit. This allows it to get concentrated in an area and not get detected by a human who can smell the agent added to the gas to help us detect the leak. Make sure your connections are tight. Have as much ventillation that you can afford. Last and most importantly, install a combustable gas detector at the lowest point, but near the burner. Close to the floor if possible. If you are burning near a stairway that goes down, install a second device at the bottom of the stairs as the propane will "flow" or run down the stairs. TEST the device by blowing an unignited propane torch at it momentarily. This could save your life, even if you are using propane equipment indoors, even if it is certified.
Note: You can get combination CO and combustable gas detectors. I highly recommend.
Good luck, be safe.
indoctrin8ed wrote:
Yup - even burning a candle will produce SOME CO Carbon Monoxide. Propane is just as CO friendly as Natural Gas.
It comes down to the design of the equipment and your awareness. And you need to pay attention to this. If it was designed for outdoor use only, the quality of everything from the line hookups to the burner affect the likelyhood of a leak or incomplete combustions. Let's break things down.
CO: Propane and NG.
NG equipment is almost always designed to be a permantly installed device, and by a professional, and leak tested. The indoor grade equipment is either very efficient (releasing extremely low levels of CO) or has a ventilation exit (eg, your gas furnace) to the outside, separating the exhaust gases from the heat. NG BBQ's are not as efficient and may have more CO emissions, but they are designed to be outdoors and aren't held to the CO emission standards as NG ovens/ranges. People have died from CO emission from running their BBQ's inside, and this has nothing to do with the gas type. Propane, on the other hand, can also burn very efficiently indoors (check out Indoor Propane Heaters on google) and also, when designed to be indoors, has very low CO emissions. A UL certified indoor propane heater must meet these standards, and accompanies other safety features and warnings. It's never a bad idea to have a CO detector anytime you are burning gasses of any kind indoors.
Fire safety: Propane and NG
Breaking down the risk for fire is in two categories: a fire that was started by the device (something cumbusable caught fire from the open flame) and the risk of an explosion due to the gas getting into the air, then igniting. FAR more fires, injuries, deaths occur from the open flame issue, or hot ambers/sparks originating from the device. Devices designed for outdoor use do not have to account for sparks and flameups that are typical on a BBQ. A BBQ on NG or Propane would pose an equal risk if used inside. Explosion risk is much different with Propane and NG. While the risk is low for either, it's important to understand the increase risk with Propane if you choose to use it inside. Propane will pool to the lowest level in the room and sit. This allows it to get concentrated in an area and not get detected by a human who can smell the agent added to the gas to help us detect the leak. Make sure your connections are tight. Have as much ventillation that you can afford. Last and most importantly, install a combustable gas detector at the lowest point, but near the burner. Close to the floor if possible. If you are burning near a stairway that goes down, install a second device at the bottom of the stairs as the propane will "flow" or run down the stairs. TEST the device by blowing an unignited propane torch at it momentarily. This could save your life, even if you are using propane equipment indoors, even if it is certified.
Note: You can get combination CO and combustable gas detectors. I highly recommend.
Good luck, be safe.
Sounds like someone who knows what they are talking about.
Thanks for the informative post.
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