Raspberry Lambic
Hi Tikker and drmofot, hope all is well! Your discussion has been valuable for me as I am preparing to attempt just such an approximation for my wife. Most of my brewing has been all-grain and limited more to strict styles vs experimentation. This one will be an experiment, indeed. Just a quick note to Tikker to see if you have been able to taste your Lindemans Raspberry Lambic clone yet. If so, are you pleased with the result and do you have any suggestions to refine or improve the process?
A few questions for Tikker and drmofot regarding 5 gallon batch measurements:
1) How much acidulated malt is recommended and when to add during boil?
2) How much lactose prior to bottling? (to taste I assume?)
3) How much raspberry puree, extract, or both would you recommend? Also, I have been given a couple conflicting recommendations over the use of puree vs concentrated wine base by the guys at the local brewing stores, as well. Any recommendations from you on this point?
4) I see in Clone Brews that their Lindemans clone recommends a couple ounces of dried elderberries for added color but I was under the impression that the color they gave was more black than red. Do you have any suggestions as to the use of dried elderberries.
Mine is looking like it will be a cross between the Clone Brews recipe with the drmofot modifications suggested to save time and exposure to Lambic yeast & bacterial strains. I'll post the recipe once everything is firmed up. Thanks for the help!
bordeaaj,
I actually ended up making a "neutral" wheat beer using American ale yeast and added the seedless raspberry concentrate in the secondary (I used 3 qts., probably more than needed). It then reignited fermentation and continued to ferment another 2 1/2 weeks.
Because I was after a strong fruit flavor, when I transfered for clarifying, I also added 4 oz. Raspberry Natural flavoring.
In the end it was full of fruit flavor, as I had hoped, but not with the sweetness I was after.
I spoke to MLHBS guy and he suggested pouring a small glass and adding cane sugar to the extent that I wanted. I did that and extrapallated to my 5 gallons, mixed the sugar quantity in a small amount of warm water till fully disolved and added that to my keg.
It IS a fruitfull brew, to me not real "beerlike" in my opinion but others whom don't normally drink beer do find it to be a fruit flavored "beer".
3# American two-row
1/2# Canadian Honey Malt
2# Vienna Malt
7# Wheat Malt
2) 1 1/2 qt. Cans Oregon Seedless Raspberry Concentrate
Tikker wrote:
bordeaaj,
I actually ended up making a "neutral" wheat beer using American ale yeast and added the seedless raspberry concentrate in the secondary (I used 3 qts., probably more than needed). It then reignited fermentation and continued to ferment another 2 1/2 weeks.
Because I was after a strong fruit flavor, when I transfered for clarifying, I also added 4 oz. Raspberry Natural flavoring.
In the end it was full of fruit flavor, as I had hoped, but not with the sweetness I was after.
I spoke to MLHBS guy and he suggested pouring a small glass and adding cane sugar to the extent that I wanted. I did that and extrapallated to my 5 gallons, mixed the sugar quantity in a small amount of warm water till fully disolved and added that to my keg.
It IS a fruitfull brew, to me not real "beerlike" in my opinion but others whom don't normally drink beer do find it to be a fruit flavored "beer".
3# American two-row
1/2# Canadian Honey Malt
2# Vienna Malt
7# Wheat Malt
2) 1 1/2 qt. Cans Oregon Seedless Raspberry Concentrate
Thanks for the feedback, Tikker. I'll make sure to add that lactose to taste prior to bottling to sweeten things up. I have the wheat and acidulated malt steeping right now. I found a post recommending that for a "sourish" Belgian beer approximately 8% of the total malt weight should be acidulated malt. I figure this Lamboise is a little more tart than most "sourish" beers so I am using a percent or two more = just under one pound. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Thanks again!
bordeaaj wrote:
A few questions for Tikker and drmofot regarding 5 gallon batch measurements:
1) How much acidulated malt is recommended and when to add during boil?
2) How much lactose prior to bottling? (to taste I assume?)
Just a couple comments:
Acidulated malt is added to the mash not the boil. If you aren't all graining, then you'll have to add lactic acid to get the same effect. I am note sure what the effect or how much acidulated malt can be steeped as a speicalty grain though.
Lactose to taste- Well lactose has no real flavor to it, its more of a mouthfeel thing. One pound in 5 gallons is noticable. Maybe use a little less if you are unsure.
brewchez wrote:
bordeaaj wrote:
A few questions for Tikker and drmofot regarding 5 gallon batch measurements:
1) How much acidulated malt is recommended and when to add during boil?
2) How much lactose prior to bottling? (to taste I assume?)Just a couple comments:
Acidulated malt is added to the mash not the boil. If you aren't all graining, then you'll have to add lactic acid to get the same effect. I am note sure what the effect or how much acidulated malt can be steeped as a speicalty grain though.
Lactose to taste- Well lactose has no real flavor to it, its more of a mouthfeel thing. One pound in 5 gallons is noticable. Maybe use a little less if you are unsure.
Thanks for the input, brewchez! Any other options you can think of to sweeten &/or sour things up a bit if needed? I suppose I could use an acid blend to adjust tartness but I am stuck on the non-fermentable sweetener if lactose has no sweet flavor. Can't really kill the yeast with campden tablets as in winemaking in order to prevent further fermentation of added cane sugar because that would also prevent carbonation in the bottle...though it would work if I had the ability to force carbonate in a keg (but who knows how that might affect the flavor, anyway). I could try doubling up on the raspberry puree but I have a suspicion that all the sweetness will be fermented away no matter how much is used. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
You're considering lactose because you want to have some residual sweetness?
I think you'll be surprised that you'll have plenty of residual sweetness in the beer. The base beer itself will still have some sweetness, and the fruit additions and flavor will certainly contribute to preceived sweetness just fine. I don't think you have any real worries about the final sweetness factor.
bordeaaj,
Your suspicion of adding more puree and having the sweetness fermented out is a real issue.
It is what I experienced, sorry I have no real suggestions, except you might want to visit the following site and ask your question ie "how do add additional sweetness, without adding fermentables, when bottle conditioning?"
tastybrew.com
Another great homebrew site.
Don't know if you like this idea or not, but sucralose, Splenda being a brand name, has no calories, and is non-fermentable. I put some in a light raspberry mead, to sweeten it just a bit for the lady, and primed with corn sugar.
Not being a Zima lover, it tasted ok for that type of drink & she's seems to like it. I don't have to buy Zima much, anyway. 
I still contest that brewing the beer as normal will have plenty of fruity and residual sweet flavor.
I don't add any extra sweetners to my fruit beers and they come out with plenty of percieved sweetness. That's because the fruit flavor itself seems sweet.
Lindemans framboise is plenty sweet and plenty sour. I think a well brewed fruit beer soured up appropriately will seem sweet enough. Even for the ladies. I suggest just trying it without worring about the need for an external sweetner. If you are brewing this from extract use some of the less attenuable brands of extract. IF you are all graining this then use a high mash temp.
Most lambics these days use additional unfermentable sugars to give a perceived sweetness and to cut the sour edge. Lindemans is probably the most flagrant offender, but Duchesse De Bourgogne also adds the equivalent of Splenda to their beer. Granted Duchesse still has a good sour note, much more so than Lindemans, but nothing like Cantillon. The sour taste in Lindemans is more of a tartness, due to a lot of fruit, not really the lambic souring process.
Not to completely disagree with Brewchez, but I feel the only way you're going to get that thick jammy sweetness is with unfermentable sugar. If it was me, I'd add some Splenda and be done with it, since that's what the brewery does. Although you could probably also use something like Laaglander DME to get a much less fermentable beer - but if Splenda is good enough for the brewery....then it's good enough for me. Whatever you use, make sure you're not just dumping in corn/cane sugar. All that will do is boost your ABV and dry the beer out, opposite of what you're looking to achieve.
As for the acid malt, I'm not positive, but I think the souring bacteria is on the outside of the malt, so you should be able to steep it and still get a souring effect. But I'd pop a few kernels in my mouth and suck on them (don't chew them) first to make sure. I don't have any more on hand or I'd give it a shot.
Good luck, hope it all turns out well.
DT
dmofot wrote:
Not to completely disagree with Brewchez,
No problem there man. Free exchange of ideas on the boards are what its all about.
dmofot wrote:
As for the acid malt, I'm not positive, but I think the souring bacteria is on the outside of the malt, so you should be able to steep it and still get a souring effect. But I'd pop a few kernels in my mouth and suck on them (don't chew them) first to make sure. I don't have any more on hand or I'd give it a shot.
Good luck, hope it all turns out well.
DT
Acid malt is very acid by taste, any bacteria on it surface is not what gives you the sourness. The acidic flavor is in the way they malt it makes it sort of taste like sourpatch kids. Pop a pinch in your mouth its great stuff. The acid flavor is in the malt.
Thanks for the ideas and discussion, I find the back and forth extremely valuable. Even though this is a rushed Lindeman's Framboise approximation I'll still have plenty of time to decide what to do if I need some sweetness at bottling. Here is the recipe I am using as given in the Szamatulski's Clone Brews with modifications in red:
Lindeman's Framboise Clone
Yield: 5 gallons (19 L)
Original Gravity: 1.065
Final Gravity: estimated 1.010 - 1.011
estimated 6.5% alcohol by volume
IBU 13
SRM 22
Crush and steep in about 1/2 gal (2 L) water at 150F (66C) for about 20 minutes:
* 1/2lb (.23kg) honey malt
* 1lb (.46kg) Breiss flaked wheat
* 1lb (.46kg) acidulated malt for tartness (effect may be questionable with just steeping)
Strain the grain water into brew pot and sparge the grains with about 1/2gal (2L) water at 150F (66C). Add water into brew pot to bring total volume to about 1.5gal (6L). Bring the water to a boil and add:
* 2.5lb (1.1kg) wheat dry malt extract
* 1.5lb (.68kg) extra-light dry malt extract
* 2 years old Czech Saaz @ 2% AA (4HBU) (I used 1oz (57g) old stale Tettnanger hops with original AA @ 4.7%)
Add water until total volume is about 2.5gal (9L). Boil for 45 minutes then add:
* 1 tsp (5ml) irish moss
* 1/2 tsp (2.5ml) elderberries (for color, optional)
Boil for 15 minutes, remove pot from burner, and cool 15 minutes. Strain the cooled wort into primary fermenter and add cold water to obtain 5gal (19L). When temperature is under 80F (26.6C) pitch your yeast:
* Wyeast 1056 American ale yeast (I used White Labs WLP400 Belgian Wit yeast)
* Ferment @ 68 - 75F (20 - 24C)
Ferment in primary fermenter 5 -7 days or until fermentation slows. Into a separate secondary fermenter add:
* 1 46oz can Oregon Seedless Raspberry Puree Concentrate (I used 2)
* 20 drops pectic enzyme
* Wyeast 3728 lambic blend yeast
* Ferment @ 68 - 75F (20 - 24C)
Rack beer from primary on top of fruit and lambic yeast. Ferment in secondary fermenter for 6 months (I probably won't wait that long). Then bottle with:
* 1.25 cup (300ml) wheat dry malt extract (I think I may use jaggery (palm sugar) as described in Mosher's Radical Brewing for fun
* 12oz (340g) natural raspberry beer flavoring
Since this is for my wife, I will have her help taste test in side-by-side comparison with an actual Lindeman's Framboise to possibly add:
* lactic acid or an acid blend to her taste if additional tartness is needed
* lactose, maltodextrin, or Splenda to her taste if additional sweetness needed
Suggestions are always welcome!!!
Interesting note on potential fermentability of some Splenda products:
Apparently grocery store Splenda is 85% "bulking agent" and only about 15% sucralose per unit of measure. Might have to double check to make sure we get the version of Splenda containing the right "bulking agent" or use pure sucralose alone. Read the excerpt below found on Wikipedia for more info on these "bulking agents":
Though marketed in the U.S. as a "No calorie sweetener," Splenda products also include bulking agents that contain about 86% of the calories as the same mass of sugar (331 calories per 100 g vs. 387 calories per 100 g for sugar).[9] However, since Splenda is about 14.5% as dense as sugar, a given volume of Splenda has 12.4% the energy of the same volume of sugar.[10] When sucralose is added to commercial products such as diet drinks, the bulking agent is not present and no caloric energy is added.
Although the "nutritional facts" label on Splenda's retail packaging states that a single serving of 0.5 gram (1 teaspoon or 5 milliliters) contains zero calories, Splenda actually contains 1.66 calories per teaspoon.[11] The individual, tear-open packages are 1 gram servings which therefore contain 3.31 calories. Such labeling is appropriate in the U.S. because the FDA's regulations permit a product to be labeled as "zero calories" if the "food contains less than 5 calories per reference amount customarily consumed and per labeled serving."[12] Because Splenda contains a relatively small amount of sucralose, little of which is metabolized, virtually all of Splenda's caloric content derives from the highly fluffed dextrose or maltodextrin bulking agents that give Splenda its volume. Like other carbohydrates, dextrose and maltodextrin have 3.75 calories per gram.
End excerpt.
If you happen to get the 85% dextrose version it will definitely be 85% fermentable by even normal beer yeast and result in changes to the beer, ie. lightening of body, dryness, etc. You will still get the desired sweetening from the 15% by volume of sucralose, of course...but it would be better to go with pure sucralose for complete control I suppose. As far as lambic blend yeast cultures go, according to at least one seemingly knowledgeable source at Tastybrew.com (thanks for the referral, Tikker) the Brett yeast species are rumored to be able to metabolize the normally non-fermentable maltodextrin and the lactic acid bacteria can possibly metabolize lactose as well. I have yet to hear back from Wyeast for a definitive answer on this question but expect to hear from them soon.
I am curious about how the batch that bordeaaj made turned out. I am thinking about taking on a similar project and I don't want to put in all of the time and effort without hearing about the results. I just got a brewing kit for Christmas and my girlfriend is excited to have a steady supply of the Framboise that she likes so much.
Any feedback would be welcome...Thanks!
317Daryl wrote:
I am curious about how the batch that bordeaaj made turned out. I am thinking about taking on a similar project and I don't want to put in all of the time and effort without hearing about the results. I just got a brewing kit for Christmas and my girlfriend is excited to have a steady supply of the Framboise that she likes so much.
Any feedback would be welcome...Thanks!
Hi Daryl, good to hear from you! Regarding your question on how the Lindemanns Frambois clone is turning out, it's still on the fruit in secondary with the pellicle still intact so I have a little ways to go yet (I didn't do the quickie version). I have tasted it a couple of times and it does taste good but it's pretty aggressively sour, more along the lines of the Cantillons rather than the sweet/tart of the Lindemanns I was shooting for. However, I think the sourness is due to the increased acidity from significantly bumping up the amount of red raspberries rather than the contribution from the lambic culture itself. I'll definitely have to backsweeten with wine conditioner or blend with a sweeter beer for it to suite my wifes taste. Also, I still have yet to add the 3 bottles of raspberry extract the recipe calls for prior to bottling. It is probably a far better example of a traditional frambois now than what it will be when I finish sweetening and adding extracts...maybe I'll split the batch leaving 3 gallons of what I have now and 3 gallons to sweeten.
The lambic is definitely the most interesting and fun beer I have done in 15 years of brewing and I would recommend you give it a try if you are at all interested. If you do I would encourage you to follow the lambic recipe from "Brewing Classic Styles" over the "Clone Brews" recipe I followed. That way you will ferment out first and add fruit to taste rather than all at once after primary the way I did...you will have much more control over it that way. You can turn it into a quickie if you want to as well. If you go with the "Clone Brews" recipe maybe it would be better to just keep the fruit to the recommended amounts and I suppose it will turn out sweeter and closer to what you want than what I did by tripling the fruit addition and then having to backsweeten to taste (not that big a deal, really). Either way, expect the steady stream of frambois to require some tweaking along the way in order to approximate that Lindemanns taste. You may end up converting her to a more traditional frambois in the end. Hope that helps!
Another idea that is something my wife really seems to like, is incredibly easy compared to brewing beer, and is a lot of fun are meads. If you are interested in meads check out gotmead.com or listen to Ken Schramms recent interview on the Brewing Network.com "Jamil Show". I would recommend looking for an Orange Blossom Traditional Sweet Mead or doing the one described during the interview. Just make sure to get the inexpensive Go-Ferm and Fermaid K from morebeer.com (if you don't have it locally at a homebrew store) as recommended rather than using regular yeast nutrient or energizer. I learned the hard way that it does make a difference. Feel free to contact me if you need to.
Andy
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